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Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds - SOLD [message #3494] Fri, 04 April 2014 22:02 Go to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
Messages: 634
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Gruen Master
I don't know the exact date or production numbers, but it probably dates to somewhere around 1925. The case is marked 827, but the movement is an 826. This seems pretty typical for Gruen to have a case marked for the successor movement but still contain the predecessor movement, so I would guess this watch dates to around the time that the 827 replaced the 826, which seems to be about 1925 or 1926. These are fairly rare watches. One of them shows up on eBay about once every couple of years, from what I've seen over the years.

The watch is in excellent condition. There are a few light dings on the back (that didn't photograph well). The dial was recently restored (original hard enamel print, new clear lacquer coat and lume). The crystal is new glass. The crown is correct. It was fully serviced a few months ago (by the remarkably persistent Timeticker), and keeps good time. For size, it's almost exactly the same dimensions as a Hamilton 6/0 cushion, 28mm wide without crown by 35mm lug-to-lug. It comes in a correct box, though not original to this watch.

$425 with the box, $400 without.

http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-tvXvZq8/1/XL/Cushion%201-XL.jpg
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-hSQDQWR/1/XL/Cushion3-XL.jpg
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-XSsSD27/1/XL/Cushion4-XL.jpg
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-GbHxZHZ/0/XL/Cushion%20movement-XL.jpg
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-P2KZMh8/0/L/Gruen%20in%20box-L.jpg

[Updated on: Tue, 24 June 2014 14:34]

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Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3497 is a reply to message #3494] Sat, 05 April 2014 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GaryM is currently offline  GaryM
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Cheerleader

I have to say that Timeticker is a staple if not a savour amongst us here.

Green...oh my desire! You really got me going on this one afire.

GLWTS...that is if doesn't show up in my box first.;-)


Aqualung, my friend, don't you start away uneasy You poor old sod, you see it's only me
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3499 is a reply to message #3497] Sat, 05 April 2014 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
Messages: 351
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Gruen Guildsman

Great job on the restoration afire. I dunno if you used International, but I've got a couple with similar colored lume and it looks great on these old watches and yours in particular it looks good on. Green and orange. GO FIGHTING _________! I can't think of a clever high-school team name that would have those colors (i.e. insert joke here that I can't seem to conjure up).

I believe this is the Doctors' watch that is a larger version of the Nurses' one that looks identical. They were both mid-1920's.

You've got a beautiful timepiece with a stunning dial. OK, the rest is stunning too!
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3514 is a reply to message #3499] Mon, 07 April 2014 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

I've uploaded pictures of my matching Green Gold Nurses Watch to a gallery here:
http://imgur.com/a/1FaGd#0

I don't want to upload a photo to neither distract buyers with a lesser watch nor confuse them.

I've never seen another one of either of these two watches. I bought this one some time back because I had never seen one.

I have the mini-version. My case measures 31 mm lug to lug by 25 mm across

It too has a mismatch of the back to the movement. The caseback has 827 stamped in it while the movement in the watch is an 826. It seems like this pairing was used for some period of time, a week, month, year....

You've got the KILLER watch to be sure!! Solid Green Gold, it runs, nicer dial, hands, a men's watch. Gorgeous overall.

My watch needs work. Looks pretty good but you can see a couple of things about the movement.... the upper 3rd wheel is missing.

Our movements' bridges are marked differently. I found it interesting that the movement was not in the "Discontinued" section of the 1948 catalog. I'm thinking that the watches that used it warranted keeping spare parts for these movements around for some time.

The 825, 926, 827 movements are all 15 jewels and grouped as the same family. They're unusual and have this additional information with the description:

Quote:
All have two different balance staffs

There's a lot of info contained in the * is pretty squirrely in terms of parts. All are 15 jewel movements. Here's the info for the 1948 material catalog:

No. 825* -- 15 Jewels
No. 826 -- 15 Jewels Straight escape wheel pivots.
No. 827 -- 15 Jewels

All have two different balance staffs with 0.40 and 0.55 hairspring shoulders.
• No. 825 has long and short fourth wheel pivots. All have 2 identically
shaped intermediate bridges and detects, only one is left and the other is
right of stem, also different center wheel, cannon pinion, hour wheel, third
wheel, sweep-second post, sweep-second wheel, tension spring and screw for
sweep-second mechanism


If I may comment on the sale.... it's a darned good price considering solid 14K gold, the condition, how it really shines, and the rarity. What a combination!

Wish I could afford it!
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3518 is a reply to message #3514] Mon, 07 April 2014 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Timeticker is currently offline  Timeticker
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Gruen Master
I thoroughly enjoyed working on that watch. I wish I had the clams to shell out for this one! Anyone who doesn't jump on this at this price is a little light headed. The watch is exactly as Afire has described, and lovely wrapped in gold. I believe that to be a great gold content of 10K gold, not fillegre, but gold. This is an extremely comfortable watch to wear and shows just beautifully! Quite the rare piece.

People you thought were your best friends will stab you in the back to your face!

Love them anyway.
A "Paradoxical Commandment"
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3519 is a reply to message #3497] Mon, 07 April 2014 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Timeticker is currently offline  Timeticker
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Gruen Master
GaryM wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 02:03
I have to say that Timeticker is a staple if not a savour amongst us here.

Green...oh my desire! You really got me going on this one afire.

GLWTS...that is if doesn't show up in my box first.;-)

Hey Gary, go ahead and buy it! Then, you can send it to me to wear for a few years, and I'll forget to send it back, ok? Sounds good, right? Sheesh, I thought it was a good deal! Lol!


People you thought were your best friends will stab you in the back to your face!

Love them anyway.
A "Paradoxical Commandment"
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3521 is a reply to message #3499] Mon, 07 April 2014 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Gruen Master
Thanks for the nice comments!
MikeTheWatchGuy wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 00:10
I believe this is the Doctors' watch that is a larger version of the Nurses' one that looks identical. They were both mid-1920's.

You're right about that. At one point, I picked up a spare 826 on eBay because it had what appeared to be an identical dial, but original and in passable condition. I figured it would be nice to have one perfect restored dial, and one decent original. But when it arrived, I found that the dial was a couple millimeters smaller in diameter. It must have come from the smaller nurse's version.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3522 is a reply to message #3519] Tue, 08 April 2014 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GaryM is currently offline  GaryM
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Timeticker wrote on Mon, 07 April 2014 13:05
Hey Gary, go ahead and buy it! Then, you can send it to me to wear for a few years, and I'll forget to send it back, ok? Sounds good, right? Sheesh, I thought it was a good deal! Lol!


Tomas, What have been cleaning your movements with lately?

Don't tempt me.;-)


Aqualung, my friend, don't you start away uneasy You poor old sod, you see it's only me
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3523 is a reply to message #3522] Tue, 08 April 2014 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Timeticker is currently offline  Timeticker
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Gruen Master
Methinks it would not take much to push you over the line!!!!!

People you thought were your best friends will stab you in the back to your face!

Love them anyway.
A "Paradoxical Commandment"
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3525 is a reply to message #3523] Tue, 08 April 2014 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
Messages: 351
Registered: May 2013
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Gruen Guildsman

Was the dial for your replacement more like my dial without lume or yours with? I'm curious as the ad shows lume on both but clearly mine doesn't have any. Interesting they're both in Green Gold. Matching set available should someone buy yours afire and want to purchase mine at a great price.

It's curious about the use of these movements in these particularly marked cases. I haven't checked other 827 cases to see if there's an 826 inside. Any guesses as to why there would be this difference in terms of price or a technical reason?

I can't tell the difference between the 3 of these in terms of functionality or quality. All appear to be sweep second as it's hinted at in the main description of the movements, none of the movements are designated with "SS", and none of them have parts shown under "Sweep Second Material". The picture of the movement also shows a sweep second movement.

The only thing left, physically that I can think of, is the thickness of the movements. It says they all have differing center wheel, sweep second post and cannon pinion. The differing parts are all sweep second mechanism pieces.

Sorry to hijack your for sale listing with talk of a mini-doc watch but it's interesting and does lend credibility that your movement is the correct one for the case, not something swapped in later.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3526 is a reply to message #3525] Tue, 08 April 2014 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Mike, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure I've ever seen an 827. Since I've owned this watch and have been paying attention, it seems like most or all I've seen have been 826's, even with cases marked 827. I haven't the slightest clue why this would be.
As for the dial I found, it was luminous, just like mine but a bit smaller. But your dial is still correct. Both watches are shown in the 1929 catalog. Yours lists both radium and black figure dials, while the solid gold version says radium dial only.
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Other/Gruen-Guild-Book-7-1929/i-ZNvTNB8/0/O/page083.jpg
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3527 is a reply to message #3526] Tue, 08 April 2014 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

Awesome find!

Good stuff. I like the match on the dials.

Interesting on the 827. The guild book you've found these in shows the 827 SS in the movements section on page 17 and even calls it a doctor's movement, at least that's how I read it. Yet the Quadrons are what is labeled the doctor's models. Strange stuff, of course.


Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3528 is a reply to message #3527] Tue, 08 April 2014 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikey
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Gruen Master
This info from the Ranfft site:
Family:
825: sub second
826: sweep second, open-face layout
827: sweep second, hunter layout


Time, even vintage time, goes too fast for my tastes.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3529 is a reply to message #3528] Tue, 08 April 2014 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

I found an early reference to these and the breakdown of the parts and movements.

They are in the Standardized Parts 1926. In the Gruen Repairer's Reference:
825 page 100 (Subseconds)
827 page 101 (Sweep Second Movement)

Matches up with mikey's finds.

I don't see the 826, even on the glued-in pages.

Thanks to mikey we at least know the differences now.

Can someone explain what the hunter and open-face layouts mean?
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3530 is a reply to message #3529] Wed, 09 April 2014 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikey
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Gruen Master
My understanding of the differences or how to tell them apart: movements destined for Hunter cases usually have the winding stem at 3 while movements destined for open faced cases have the stem at 12. The exception was the 'sidewinders' where the movement was rotated. I believe i also read that if you look at the position of the winding stem and the fourth wheel (for the seconds hand) they are opposite in an open faced movement and at 90 degrees to each other in a hunter movement. I believe that hunter cases were more prevalent in the 1800's and early 1900's because the porcelain dials were so fragile.

Of course i could be completely wrong.... Confused


Time, even vintage time, goes too fast for my tastes.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 April 2014 01:47]

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Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3532 is a reply to message #3530] Wed, 09 April 2014 02:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
C. Hurt is currently offline  C. Hurt
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Gruen Guildsman
Mikey is correct in his understanding. You can also see the difference from the train side. The different layouts also require a reversal of the position of the barrel and the fourth wheel. The ratchet wheel is at 3 in a hunter movement, 12 in a Lepine (open faced) movement. With a little practice you can recognize them from the back.

Not sure it has anything to do with the composition of the dial, I rather think it was the protection of the crystal that early watch designers were worried about.

Originally most watches were hunters. Jean Antoine Lepine pioneered the open faced configuration in order to achieve a thinner watch, both with the movement and the case. By the end of the 19th century, hunters were seen as old fashioned, and open face watches were in style. This lasted until the end of the pocketwatch period.

When ladies pendant watches were applied to wristwatches, the nomenclature came with them, so we still refer movements with the traditional wristwatch layout (seconds at 6) as hunters.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 April 2014 02:33]

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Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3533 is a reply to message #3532] Wed, 09 April 2014 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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I've owned this watch for about four years and never noticed that the movement has an open face/lepine layout, but now that you mention it, it's obvious. Just a few weeks ago on another board I commented on how odd OF movements in Illinois watches look when your used to seeing hunters. Yet I didn't notice it in this case. I suppose this is one of those things that may never make sense, but it begs the question of why Gruen would bother to have two sweep seconds movements in both open face and hunter arrangements. It makes no difference with sweep seconds. But it also calls into question my assumption that the 827 was the successor of te 826. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps they coexisted and the 826 was just more prevalent?
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3534 is a reply to message #3533] Wed, 09 April 2014 02:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
C. Hurt is currently offline  C. Hurt
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afire wrote on Tue, 08 April 2014 21:41
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps they coexisted and the 826 was just more prevalent?


This.

At least that's what I've always believed.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3536 is a reply to message #3534] Wed, 09 April 2014 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

They may have co-existed, but I think the 826 came later. It doesn't show up in the catalogs until the 1930's where the 825 and 827 were both in the 1926 catalog, the 827 in the 1929 Guild book. Unfortunately it's a 10-year gap until the 1939 catalog.

While digging, I found an email (2009 no less) from someone wanting information on their watch with an 827 case that housed and 826 movement. I am unable to find the picture that went with it however so it could be one of the ones we have.

There have been a ton of 826 based watches on ebay, one as recently as last October in a ladies pendant watch. I can't make out the case. And Holben had a sterling silver one with an 826 but nothing but sterling stamped in the back. However, he also had a 3-piece case ladies watch with an 827 in it. I found a ladies fixed lug with an 827 case, but don't know the movement.

So, cursory look at ebay past, 826's are not all that rare and they appear in ladies and mens watches. 827's are rare.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3538 is a reply to message #3536] Wed, 09 April 2014 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Mike, there's no way the 826 was introduced after 1929. For one, they're usually (if not always) found in watches that plainly date to the 1920s. And second, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Aegler/Gruen to introduce an open face movement like this well after the demand for something like this had all but evaporated. Anyway, according to Ranfft, Aegler introduced this movement in 1922.
Now for some idle speculation. Gruen originally intended to just use the hunter 825 and 827. For whatever reason, perhaps getting rid of open face ebauches that by the early 1920s were unlikely to get used in tiny pocket watches or wristlets wound at 12:00, Aegler used these as the base for the SS movements (since layout doesn't matter) and Gruen designated it the 826. Maybe they got a discount or something. Just a guess.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3539 is a reply to message #3538] Wed, 09 April 2014 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

I'm only saying what's in the books I have.... you've got more of the background history to go with or against what's in print. I just thought that it likely came later, don't know at all by how much, merely from not seeing the 826 with the 825 and the 827 in the 1926 book. And then not seeing it anywhere in print until the 1930's. I make no claims other than that.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3540 is a reply to message #3539] Wed, 09 April 2014 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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No, I get what you're saying. Didn't mean to come off as combative. But I think this is one of those cases where what you see out in the wild is more informative than what's in the books.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3542 is a reply to message #3540] Wed, 09 April 2014 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeTheWatchGuy
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Gruen Guildsman

Understood. I do think there was a lag, perhaps a tiny lag, but a lag of some sort.

I'm a big believer that Gruen wasn't sloppy as they are a watch company, quite organized and meticulous as well. There's purpose and evidently a far reaching decision to use the 826 in the 827 cases since it was done on many models, men's and women's. Just my own opinion that I know differs from other just as valid opinions.

Anyway, my only point is that I think it lagged by some amount, perhaps a teeny tiny amount from the other 2 movements.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3543 is a reply to message #3542] Wed, 09 April 2014 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikey
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Are there any other catalogues out there (ie crystal catalogues, parts suppliers etc) from that era that might help in determining when the movements became available?

Time, even vintage time, goes too fast for my tastes.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3544 is a reply to message #3543] Wed, 09 April 2014 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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The plot thickens. I thought maybe I'd take another look at the 827 page in the 1926 parts catalog to see if there are any clues there. Notice anything interesting?
http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Other/Gruen-Standardized-Parts-1926/i-WcLzjDb/0/XL/Cat1926-28-XL.jpg

[Updated on: Wed, 09 April 2014 21:54]

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Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3546 is a reply to message #3544] Wed, 09 April 2014 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GaryM is currently offline  GaryM
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The 827 didn't get a hunting license? Not a hunter?

Aqualung, my friend, don't you start away uneasy You poor old sod, you see it's only me
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3547 is a reply to message #3546] Thu, 10 April 2014 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Yep. If the 827 really is a hunter, then that's an 826 illustrated in the catalog. The '39 catalog also shows a lepine movement under the 825-826-827 entry. Can anybody find a picture of an actual 827?
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3695 is a reply to message #3547] Wed, 14 May 2014 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Bumped for price reduction. Down to $425, but I'd do an even $400 without the box. Sweet fancy Moses, don't make me put this on eBay!

[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2014 16:55]

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Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3703 is a reply to message #3695] Thu, 15 May 2014 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thojil is currently offline  Thojil
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Gruen Master
I would love to take it from you, but unfortunately my bonus doesn't arrive until July... Life can be so unfair Crying or Very Sad
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3762 is a reply to message #3703] Tue, 27 May 2014 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Last bump before eBay, $350 with box.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3906 is a reply to message #3762] Tue, 24 June 2014 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
notwillie is currently offline  notwillie
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Gruen Apprentice
Hi
Did this watch go to ebay?
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3908 is a reply to message #3906] Tue, 24 June 2014 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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No, it sold to a forum member. Thanks for the interest.
Re: Circa 1925 14k Green Gold Gruen Cushion with Sweep Seconds [message #3941 is a reply to message #3908] Sun, 06 July 2014 02:27 Go to previous message
Timeticker is currently offline  Timeticker
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Hi John,

Sure wish I had the money on that one! Glad you got to wear it for at least a little while. I am now trying to get my own 157 up and running, and tis driving me bonkers!!!!! Ok, just wanted to drop in and say hi!


People you thought were your best friends will stab you in the back to your face!

Love them anyway.
A "Paradoxical Commandment"
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