Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 650 (Guild) (17J, 17’’’)
| Caliber 650 (Guild) [message #12139] |
Tue, 11 February 2020 04:31  |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Caliber 650
Maker: edit: Record Dreadnought
Size: 17L
Jewels: 17 (#s only, pre-1922 tariff)
Adjustments: 4 at introduction, reduced to 3 by end of 1921
Dial release: side screws
Dial feet: 10 & 5
Some mentions of this caliber recently, so wanted to share 2 examples in hopes of learning more about it. This caliber appears to have been introduced at the end of 1920/beginning of 1921. When first introduced, it had 4 adjustments, and the serial number stamped on the bridges, in addition to identical sn on the front plate. The earliest Gruen version I’ve seen is sn 101874 that recently sold on the bay—this may have been a first run for Gruen. The earliest cased version I’ve seen is sn 103037 (still w/4 adj & bridge sn), in Gruen/Wadsworth-signed Ultra Qual case # 360419. That puts it at mid-1921, which along with the caliber # stamp on all examples I’ve seen is why i say it may have gone into use in 1921, with first production maybe at the end of 1920. The serial numbers accelerate quickly, seemingly far beyond Gruens usage, so likely it was the common maker’s sn series, not exclusive to Gruen. Hoping others can share any similar examples.
Seemingly still in 1921, this movement was redesigned to 3 adjustments and no sn on the bridges, possibly only a few months after introduction.
Here’s an early example, circa early 1921. Sn 102809, 4 adj. Silver dial stamped “650”. There is an obscured mark between bridges next the “650” stamp that resembles the overlapped “HC” Russbach Hanni logo shown on mikrolisk, but TBD if there is any relationship.
  
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Tue, 02 June 2020 13:13] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 650 (Guild) [message #12500 is a reply to message #12145] |
Tue, 02 June 2020 13:28  |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Been busy, Barney, as of course you are correct and wanted to correct the OP.
I'd not been able to find a Record example to match--but since this post there've been a plethora on auction, both of the early and later variants I posted above. SN sequence is a match to Record's own (at least on this line), and the fonts/stamps all match with those on the Gruen 650.
Currently, item #s 232925633145 & 192886523378 are examples of the early version--note the matching text locations, fonts and SN sequence.
I cannot immediately locate an example of the later version (3 ADJ), but I have seen at least 1 exact match in the past few months.
Regarding the Record caliber #, I cannot confirm that it is the 51. The 51 shares parts, I understand, but it is specifically a 17.5L caliber with a different bridge design, while we know Record produced the exact size & layout as the 650. The 650 may be an exact match to a different Record caliber (perhaps 48, 49, or 50).
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 650 (Guild) [message #12504 is a reply to message #12503] |
Tue, 02 June 2020 17:55 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Yes, there have been number clusters given to certain suppliers...
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 650 (Guild) [message #12505 is a reply to message #12503] |
Tue, 02 June 2020 18:14 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Methinks you're right, afire. Seems we've seen grouping of assigned numbers earlier (Favre, Frey, FHF, Aegler) and later (like 675-678 all Peseux variants). Would love to know if any have theories on how these were assigned, or even if there is a pattern of number of calibers in a "block" for each manufacturer.
edit: there's also the question of ebauche maker vs. supplier to Gruen. The Gruen caliber 673 matches FHF caliber 59--but Record was also working with these ebauches. Possibly their caliber 70? (see auction item 153957721244) It's a decade later than the 650, but just illustrating the point.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Tue, 02 June 2020 18:51] Report message to a moderator |
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