Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 849 - 6.5L, 16J - Factory L (6.5'" 16J)
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| Re: Caliber 861 [message #11815 is a reply to message #11804] |
Thu, 05 December 2019 20:56   |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks, Gary & Liz--I knew I'd seen this gorgeous watch earlier, but if I search any numbers on the forum it returns no results. Frustrating! Good to have confirmation it's Factory L. Then again... *sigh*
So my dates for mine were right, pre-1920.
I'd looked at the setting bits for both. Super close, but there seems to be a sight difference between 849 & mine/Liz's. Note the notch on the large piece: ours is more triangular vs. the 849. Note also the opposite end of that piece: there's a slight difference (849 not the same on top & bottom, different taper on the tip). I took that this was a 861, since both ends matched better. I could not find a pic of the actual movement, nor did I make out one below. Did I miss it?
Either way, these two must have been nigh identical: same size, almost same setting bits. Likely both from Factory L.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 861 [message #11817 is a reply to message #11815] |
Thu, 05 December 2019 21:32 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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I think these are just different revisions of the same movement.
Now I'm going to have to take the dial off my other one. Darn you Dan!
I also have a couple spare ones that I need to locate.
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
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| Re: Caliber 861 [message #11822 is a reply to message #11817] |
Fri, 06 December 2019 03:31 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Oh, man... Sorry, Liz!! But it's just such a beautiful movement--and unknown maker, too, so these fascinate me! I've another, too, so I'll take a look.
Let me also second Gary and say I love your pics. And your watch with this movement is the most exquisite example I've seen. Sadly, my movement here has a gold crown, meaning it was likely once something as beautiful.
BTW, I've also seen a similar movement (perhaps just a later plate style, or whichever variant is the other!) in a 14k man's watch. A pre-quadron Quadron, if you will, similar to the one I believe your 1921 ad shows at bottom right, but case made in 1924-25 and now having a Verithin signed dial/Guild marked movement. I was hoping someone here had it, to see better pics. Haven't seen it yet. Still kicking myself for not being available when it ended.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #11901 is a reply to message #11802] |
Sat, 14 December 2019 19:11 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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I corrected this thread to say "849". I discovered I also have the sister caliber 861--will post it in a separate thread, comparison below.
The Caliber 849 back plate is shown in the 1926 Guild Supplement B, and it is the one previously identified as 849 on the forum--linear jewels for the train gears vs. a slight offset in the sister caliber. You can see below there is a noticeable difference in the setting mechanism for each, as well as the click, front plate holes, dial feet holes, etc. The train jewels are a clearest identifier on the back plate, since bridge looks could change along the way.
However, the setting bits we see on all our 849s referenced above and on the "849" page in Supplement B--they all match what's labelled as the "861" in the disco'd models of later Gruen material catalogs. It appears there was a mix-up along the way, and the two got swapped.
So which is the true 849?? I'll default to the one that has a clear picture of the actual movement, concurring with the others here. BTW, Liz has shown me this image swap is also carried over from the Gruen material catalogs to the Swartchild catalogs--since the mainsprings are different, I wonder which is the correct specification for which?!
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2019 19:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #12070 is a reply to message #11901] |
Sat, 25 January 2020 02:38 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Just to confirm, Swartchild does indeed catalog this movement—the one shown as “849” in the 1926 Guild Supplement B—as Gruen caliber 861. You can clearly see the telltale click here on the movement detail, in addition to the setting bits.
Wanted to note this, for anyone following later Swartchild or Gruen catalogs, in search of repair parts. Their 861 parts list should be the correct ones for this movement—and vice versa.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Sat, 25 January 2020 02:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #13012 is a reply to message #13010] |
Fri, 31 July 2020 19:42 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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Oooohhhh....a rectangular one!? That's a first for me.
I'm feeling a strong sense of covetousness right now. 
Did you find that on the bay?
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #13013 is a reply to message #13010] |
Fri, 31 July 2020 19:44 |
Gary
Messages: 2114
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast
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Gruen Authority
Cheerleader |
 
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Dan that one sure is an oddity but boy it sure looks sharp! Like Hewie says...
Don't tell me that I'm crazy
Don't tell me I'm nowhere
Take it from me
It's hip to be square
[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #13015 is a reply to message #13014] |
Sat, 01 August 2020 01:57 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Can you believe it still runs & keeps time? I grabbed it a year ago on the bay, but sad to say I just noted it was different last week. That “Gruen Pritler” (?) dial engraving has me scratching my head. But now all I need is that 18k case I’m dreaming of 😢
Man, the Sesame Street Huey Lewis reference takes me back! I just introduced the kids to Square One TV. I think that show was the reason I never had to study for Math class until I hit Calculus. Steep learning curve on study habits then, tho! Mid term grade was a 7. My classmates called me Touchdown till the end of the term.
Guess I’ll quote Chevy Chase as Gerald Ford: “It was my understanding there would be no math...”
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Sat, 01 August 2020 02:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #13016 is a reply to message #13015] |
Sat, 01 August 2020 13:02 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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OK, time to uncover Factory L.
To make a long story short: It is one of the suspects already named for this position, Landeron. To be precise, at this time the factory was still called Charles Hahn & Cie, based in the small village Landeron. Later, when the company was part of the ESA, it was simply called after the place, Landeron.
Here is why I am sure that "Landeron" is factory L.
The only known factory L marked movement is caliber 849, caliber 861 is very similar and will have the same source. Here comes the design protection for Charles Hahn in 1918, take a closer look at number 124:
And we can see as #123 the form factor of this remarkable new rectangular version of the cal 849. This new movement is a mixture of 123 and 124...
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 849 [message #13017 is a reply to message #13016] |
Sat, 01 August 2020 16:13 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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Awesome find, Barney!
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
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