Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants (17’’’ Pocket, extra thin/semi-thin)
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12121 is a reply to message #12118] |
Fri, 07 February 2020 16:49   |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks for showing these, Dan!
I think Thojil has mentioned once that caliber 740 was manufactured by Lavina which I think is absolutely correct. Like a couple of models in the 7xx range...
Caliber 740 is in my eyes based on this Lavina design from 1908 which has been available in different sizes:
The mentioned US Patent by Edward Staehli from 1904 shows that things does not exactly have to look like in the drawings, it is the principle which is worth the patent.
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Fri, 07 February 2020 16:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12126 is a reply to message #12124] |
Fri, 07 February 2020 22:51 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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The deposit / Depose protection expired after 5 years already if not prolongated. In this particular case it has been prolonged in 1913 and a second time in 1917 when Dubois-Peseux took over Lavina. In 1922 the protection was radiated when they did not pay the fee. This does not automatically mean that the movement has not been in production anymore, it may just be an indication that Dubois-Peseux did not fear to be copied any more.
And yes, I do have two which are WSC marked:
I dated these towards 1917 once.
Another is a 19J Gruen Guild marked which I dated towards 1921 and another 19J, Gruen Guild marked which according to the case should be 1926(?).
Barney
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Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12127 is a reply to message #12126] |
Sat, 08 February 2020 11:14 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Wow, the design protection expiring in 1922 makes an even better backstop for dating these. I’ll keep looking for a dial side pic of a WSC version, to see if Depose is still stamped. I’d assume the US patent would have lapsed in 1916 and disappeared from the WSC ones.
For my education, what does the “8 h. p.” on the design protection mean?
I’d assumed the 740 was phased out by 1923, after the other 754-758 became the workhorses, but that’s just from my own limited data set: never seen one with a sn on the bridge or one cased after perhaps early 1923. However, I do note 758s in cases stamped “740” from the 1923 & possibly 1924 range. So may have lingered, as you say. Would love to see some later case examples.
Btw, I assume the same maker (Lavina) would have also supplied the 750, 752 (17L) and 720, 721 (19L). Same bridge design, same front plate number series (it is the maker’s, not Gruen’s), same US patent stamp, at least on the Premo 721 and 750 examples I’ve captured front plate pics of.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Sat, 08 February 2020 11:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12128 is a reply to message #12127] |
Sat, 08 February 2020 15:05 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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8 h.p. = 8PM
Yes, I have also seen a transition time with stamping not matching the actual movement for the Semithins And you are right, Lavina build a good number of pocket watch movements in the 7xx caliber number range. The ones you mentioned plus others like for example the rare 766.
I am currently hesitating to put the dials off my watches at current, would only do so if I would service them which is not planned in the next 2 to 3 years. But may be I have to some day...
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12130 is a reply to message #12129] |
Sat, 08 February 2020 17:48 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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I just checked and it appears that I have a 754 and a 756 in cases marked 740.
My 740 calibers are in cases marked:
1) GRUEN ULTRA QUALITY 17 LIGNE EXTRA THIN Wadsworth
2 and 3) Wadsworth Referee WARRANTED 20 YEARS
4)GRUEN SEMI THIN ULTRA QUALITY
So you are perfectly right none of my 740s is in a case marked such and instead I have two 75x movements in 740 marked cases.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Sat, 08 February 2020 17:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12135 is a reply to message #12130] |
Sun, 09 February 2020 05:05 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Checked US patent 833489, and the expiration date is listed as 10/16/1923. So my above statement was incorrect—and I’ve found an example 749 from my records to show the patent stamp remains through at least the WSC days. May mean my Guild one above is later 1923 (orphaned, so no case ref.)
WSC 740 example: front plate stamped with sn 936549 & US Pat 833489. Case is Wadsworth House # Line, Referee, not Gruen signed but stamped “740”. I read case #4775606.
Other non-Gruen signed Referees I’ve also noted stamped “750”. So the Referee cases were original issue.
Not sure that it was an overorder of 740 cases, but rather an indicator of what the case stamped caliber meant at the time. The “740” case stamp seems to the base/original model, like the “153” stamp on early Cartouche models, denoting the spec for the movement & crystal size to fit the case design but not necessarily the actual caliber used. The early 835 cartouches all were 153-stamped cases, and some continued to be stamped 153 even after 835 case stamps come into play (close study may show a slight difference in crystal sizes/shapes).
“740” stamped in the case may have just remained the case spec reference for early semi-thin cases that were 17L, open face, and had the same crystal size as the original 740. Would explain why so many 75X semis from the early 20s have 740 case stamps.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 740 (Premo, WSC, Guild) - 17J & 19J variants [message #12136 is a reply to message #12135] |
Sun, 09 February 2020 15:18 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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It's very possible that 740 is a spec description. You're right that this issue is general across Gruen's lines.
I concur that the Wadsworth Referee cases were original issue. I also have some with earlier calibers such as the 650 that have a caliber reference struck on that case.
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