Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12867 is a reply to message #12866] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 08:32   |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Hi Dan,
yes, absolutely correct time frame. Gruen filed for protection of these movements in May 1908, but it is known that movements from this filing have been produced in 1905 already.
Here the picture of the cal. 45 from that filing:
This is a Madretsch movement and since 1903 Alfred Aeby ran the Gruen Manufacturing Co. in Madretsch. So it is very likely that the Matretsch production came from the Aeby facility. As Aeby left the Gruen Manufacturing Co. in 1909 and Ernest Degoumois in St. Imier took over this movement was produced between 1905 and 1909.
I find the 125k offset of front and back serials very interesting. Could it be that the first Madretsch movement would be serial # 125001?
Barney
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Attachment: Cal. 45.JPG
(Size: 24.71KB, Downloaded 1113 times)
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 08:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12870 is a reply to message #12869] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 15:00 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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The first SN is indeed 125001. I have known it for a long time from my SN tables, and thought it was widely known.
I have an average of 7 records in each thousand going back from 129k, and then suddenly at 125k, it ends. Lowest SN observed so far: 125,255 (1903, caliber 35 hunter, 21 jewels, no chronometer balance, no Precision marking). The Precision marking first appears at 128k, by the way, even though there is no change in the quality or type of movement at that SN.
Maybe I should go ahead and analyze the SNs 125-150k.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12871 is a reply to message #12870] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 15:36 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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I’m usually the last on the bus. When did “Gruen” appear on movement? I’ve a 129k recorded (possibly a 45) with only DGS.
Edit: it would also be helpful if someone could ID the larger version in this lot: 193538174175. It’s sn 126666. I note it does say Gruen, so maybe markings varied on the smaller 45.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 15:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12872 is a reply to message #12870] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 15:43 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Interesting. So Madretsch started with 125k, a good point for dating would be the July 1906 inscription on my serial #130504 movement #7 from the same filing. Anyone having an idea which caliber # this would be? Should be 11 or 12 ligne.
Serial# 128462 has been pictured in an ad dating February 1st, 1905, if I did not misread this one:
This would be approx. 2000 movements in 1.5 years which would indicate a start in 1902. The Gruen Watch Manufacturing Co. in Madretsch has been registered December 1903 though. Assuming that the movement of #130504 might have been with the jeweler for half a year already, we would be at 2k / year and hit the late 1903 date perfectly with serial # 125001.
Barney
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Attachment: Cal No 7.JPG
(Size: 20.76KB, Downloaded 1065 times)
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Attachment: 1905 ad.JPG
(Size: 15.29KB, Downloaded 1082 times)
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 15:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12874 is a reply to message #12873] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 16:11 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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Re: Barney
I agree, and your data lines up nicely with my dating. In fact, production did begin before December 1903, as the earliest dated watch I have seen (125, 255k referenced above) dated to June 1903 (and I wish I could have bought it!! I'm extremely concerned that it was melted for scrap).
I do not have the data point of your ad. Could you post the whole thing, or at least enough that I can determine caliber and jewels? Thanks!
I do not know the caliber for Nr. 7, but I have spotted a number of them in the wild.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12875 is a reply to message #12874] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 16:52 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Alex, great, yes, I assumed that prodution began earlier than the company was officially registered. This would have been common use.
The serial number from the ad is the one from the 1910s thread, Matt's post:
[url=http://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 43&goto=11907&#msg_11907][/url]
Sorry, can't make the link work as such.
This should be the early (first?) Veri-Thin caliber.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12876 is a reply to message #12875] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 19:08 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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Ah, thank you. I did not realize that the serial number was legible in that illustration (and I didn't realize it was a V4 in your snip).
I should note at this point that the LV1 caliber starts at 120,001 and the first V4 that appears in a print ad is 124,463. The one in the ad above (128,462) is validated as part of the first true production run by 128,474 (lowest watch I have seen in the wild) and after that point I have many records.
However, the calibers referenced in this thread to this point are from a different family and therefore (presumably) follow their own rules.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 19:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12877 is a reply to message #12876] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 19:27 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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I popped the front off one of my parts LV1 movements, and found the full SN there (122,xxx). And also in one after the renumbering (329,xxx). Both are marked DEPOSE. For obvious reasons, I would think; yet it isn't marked on the V-series early movements...
This lends credence to the idea that LV-series Verithin movements were built in a different factory than the movement family referenced in this thread. But not the V-series "Precision" line! The V3 movement I just checked (and earliest that I have ever seen) shows a SN of 129k/4k....
Also lends credence to a SN allocation idea: each factory was given blocks of SNs to use, but built out their watches at different rates. I have been de facto following this theory by keeping the movement families separate in my tables (initially because the dates didn't seem to align, later because it was convenient to have movement family groups).
The switch of the LV-series from 129k SNs to 327k SNs would point to this as well: the LV-series was not positioned as "Precision" and was demoted from using the "Precision" SNs.
Maybe I should start some threads for all of the movements under discussion. I have them all...
[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 20:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12878 is a reply to message #12876] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 19:33 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Hmm, I thought that all 7 movements Gruen filed for designe protection in 1908 would share production and therewith serial number base.
Here are the 7 movements:
#1 is most likely a 16 size / 19 ligne movement. Caliber 21 / 50 / 52 or 56?
#2 should be 12 size / 17 ligne, I'd say caliber 35
#3 is the movement with serial 124463, correct?
#4 should be 0 size / 13 ligne and caliber 45
#5 is our serial 128462
#6?
#7 is my ladies movement with serial 130504.
BTW these are not the oldest movements Gruen filed for design protection in Switzerland. They were succeeded Apzil 1905 by this one (sorry, very bad print quality):
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12882 is a reply to message #12880] |
Wed, 15 July 2020 20:41 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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Apologies for the plagiarism. My thoughts:
#1 is a 16 size / 19 ligne movement. Caliber 21, 52, 56. There is another 16 size out there that follows #2 in layout.
#2 is a 12 size / 17 ligne movement. Caliber 35
#3 is exceptionally rare, only 3 sightings for me. SN 132k, 134k, 143k. OF and HC.
#4 is a 0 size / 13 ligne movement. Caliber 45
#5 is the V-series, 17 ligne movement. V1, V2, V3, V4
#6 is exceptionally rare, only 3 sightings for me. SN 139k, 140k, 451k
#7 is Barney's ladies movement with serial 130504. SN 128k, 454k seen here (along with possibly dubious sightings in 116/117k)
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12891 is a reply to message #12883] |
Thu, 16 July 2020 03:21 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Going back to the June 1903 engraving (sn 1255xx), wouldn’t it mean production of 125001 likely happened in 1902? Thinking of only 3k per year, plus all the steps between production in Switzerland and a dealer engraving a sold/finished watch in a case in the USA.
Also, would the 1906 ad have to be a V4? Or could it be a V3? Not sure what the differences were back then.
Looking forward to a future dive into the LV1, as I’m seeing some subtle changes to it when the 3xx serial numbers start.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Thu, 16 July 2020 03:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #17774 is a reply to message #17753] |
Sun, 27 November 2022 20:18 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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thesnark17 wrote on Thu, 24 November 2022 20:40Calibre 21 is a 21 jewel, Adjusted grade. It appears to have been superseded by the Calibre 52 (21 jewel, Adjusted, Precision), but there do not appear to be hard and obvious differences between them, except for the markings.
I don't know of any 16 jewel 16s Gruens. Could you post a picture?
Lemme get back to ya, in a couple years...nah, just yankin your chain.  Yeah I had worked out calibre 21 wasn't 16 jewel a while back but appreciate the confirmation Snark.
No, I can't post a pic of the movement unfortunately but the existence of a 16s/16 jewel Gruen is certain as it is documented in literature from 1904.
Matthias
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