| Possible Caliber 60 (21J sister to Cal 35) - Madretsch - 17’” Open Face [message #13186] |
Sun, 09 August 2020 04:05  |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Asking for help on this one. I can find no match in my sources.
Caliber: ??
Type: Pocket
Layout: open face
Setting: negative/American
Size: measures just over 38mm (17 ligne / 10 Size)
Signature: G. W. Co.
Maker: unknown
Jewels: 21 (#s only)
Adj: “All Positions”
Movement number: 457174 (on bridge; matching dial side sn)
Example date: late 1913-beginning 1914 production
Dial: 2-piece Ceramic, signed “Gruen”
Dial maker: unmarked
Other marks: “Safety Pinion” (center jewel), “Adjusted” (balance cock)
“Madretsch” (main plate by escape)
*not marked Precision*
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Tue, 11 August 2020 01:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13219 is a reply to message #13210] |
Mon, 10 August 2020 01:19  |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Welcome back, Alex. I was hoping to get your eyes on this one.
My interest in these styles piqued when I saw them still in the 1926 parts book, all now in regular Adjusted sn line, but all with much earlier sn than the rest. Speaks to remnants. Got this in a lucky accident—had no clue until I opened it.
I’m pretty confidant this is a reference for late/end of 1913 production, due to stamps. The model 35 in the 26 book still has words + numbers for jewels/adj. Thats at 456,9xx sn. Here’s 457,1xx with only #s. 1913 tariff, enacted September 30. Helpful, since Gruen soft converted their V4s several years later (in the 470s) Whoever was making these clearly didn’t wait.
I’m still not convinced this is a 35. Different size, different jewel count, AND different orientation? Not buying it.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13223 is a reply to message #13220] |
Mon, 10 August 2020 10:08 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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You might be doing right not buying the caliber 35 ID: This was just based on the pictures I have access to and it had been the closest match. But there once has been a caliber 60 movement which is listed as sharing parts with caliber 35 (17 ligne). So this could well be the up to now more or less undocumented caliber 60?
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 14:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13224 is a reply to message #13223] |
Mon, 10 August 2020 13:46 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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It is a 10 size. I measured twice, to be sure. Very feasible that it at least shares parts with the 35. 60 is a new number for me—would seem to fit the time.
Edit: And now that you mention it, I see 60 in the interchangeability tables as a 17L (10 size) movement. No jewel count listed. May have a match!
Having all seen the recently-sold 7J version of this family (Primo branded, link shared by Liz), it’s clear there are some unknowns/undocumented ones floating out there.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 13:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13230 is a reply to message #13228] |
Mon, 10 August 2020 16:47 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Good to find a unicorn  at least it’s running!
60 may be a good hypothesis for now, although I note Mike lists 35 as 17L too in his interchange chart (should be 17 3/4)
I have a lead on possible supplier. We’ll see if it pans out!
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 16:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13233 is a reply to message #13230] |
Mon, 10 August 2020 18:49 |
thesnark17
Messages: 654
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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I still couldn't believe this, so I dug around in my parts and turned up a parts caliber 35. Interestingly, it is *both* 17 ligne and 17.75 ligne!
The base movement is 17 ligne... and there's a removable spacer ring around it to bring it up to exactly 12 size (17 3/4 ligne). When I measured my cased caliber 35 to confirm the size (earlier message), that is what I had measured (It fits as a bezel around the outside of the dial). But actually the movement is not so large!
Yours has no spacer ring, but it's just a friction fit, so easily removed/discarded. I think that's enough evidence to say this is indeed a caliber 35, and that it is 17''' for interchange purposes.
So convoluted...
I will take some photos for proof.
[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 18:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13266 is a reply to message #13256] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 03:03 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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It’s certainly possible. I don’t have nearly the data or research from this early to help solve it. But new info for this timeframe has surfaced even in the past year, so at least this is here as a visual reference. Always hopeful!
And thank you for the info you’ve already shared on this whole family. I’d no idea it was so large.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Thu, 13 August 2020 03:06] Report message to a moderator |
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