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Wristlet Paris square 5 [message #13131]

Fri, 07 August 2020 13:34

Jenneke
Messages: 1961
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Model name : WR Paris Square 5
Type : Wristlet
Period/date : 1926/1927
Gender : ladies

Case Maker : Wadsworth
Case Material : Ultra Quality 14k Gold filled
Case Serial : 5254316
Case Style no :

Caliber : 885 (3 adj 15 jewels)
Movement Maker :
Movement Serial: 111307

Bracelet : None
Other info: case needs a clean Very Happy

Very Happy

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6720&private=0

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/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6722&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6723&private=0

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You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2020 17:16]

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13137 is a reply to message #13131]

Fri, 07 August 2020 14:52

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

Shold be a WR5 Paris Square wristlet from 1926/1927. I have one of them as well. I think the movement dates to 1926, case should already be 1927 comparing your serials to mine. But could be wrong by a year or so.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13140 is a reply to message #13137]

Fri, 07 August 2020 16:14

Gary
Messages: 2165
Registered: May 2013
Location: Seattle

Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

I thought this may have been discussed before but I cannot find a reference.

I have one that is not far off from Jenneke's but the bridge layout is nowhere near the same as the FHF 885 on hers.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6724&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6724&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6726&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6725&private=0

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[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2020 16:15]

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13141 is a reply to message #13140]

Fri, 07 August 2020 16:22

timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

I posted a comparison shot some time ago of the two configurations.
I'll do a search.

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13142 is a reply to message #13141]

Fri, 07 August 2020 16:51

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

The usual 885 is based on the same ebauche from FHF as Gary's movement.
Gruen protected the form of the bridge in May 1925:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6727&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6727&private=0

FHF protected it's according ebauche(s) in September 1925, one (452) with the "FHF"-design, one (453) as the 885 for Gruen:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6728&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6728&private=0

So these are basically the same movemens. As the serial numbers of movement and case date towards 1926 I assume that Gruen accepted a delivery of movements with the "wrong" bridge to fulfill the demand

Barney

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Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13146 is a reply to message #13142]

Fri, 07 August 2020 18:05

timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

Found it-

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6732&private=0

Attachment: 2 cal 885 movs.JPG
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"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13147 is a reply to message #13146]

Fri, 07 August 2020 18:59

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Yep, that’s the original 885 layout

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13155 is a reply to message #13147]

Sat, 08 August 2020 03:26

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

I have a few of the squares that are advertised in early 20s but don’t show up in the master book. They had a “Square XX” designation in ads, just as others in those ads have “Cartouche XX” that do match the master book.

Is there a lost “Squares” part of the master book, from before they folded into wristlets in 26-27?

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13160 is a reply to message #13155]

Sat, 08 August 2020 15:37

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

This is a very good question. I also noticed for example the Square 35 in an 1923 ad, I think it matches the WG20 solid gold wristlet in the master book. So my educated guess would be that they were merged somewhen between 1924 and 1926. BUt it could well be that there is a lost section. Althought I did not miss one of the squares yet.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13164 is a reply to message #13160]

Sat, 08 August 2020 16:55

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

I’ll have to put pics together. In my case, they were different sizes/calibers. And the wr one in master book was made with a later caliber (179 or 885)

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13176 is a reply to message #13164]

Sat, 08 August 2020 20:05

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

Yes, pictures please. I could not locate other examples but hte Square 35, but the number indicates, that there should be more...
Different sizes matter, different movements with the same case don't. This happened often in the twenties and even until about 1936.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13185 is a reply to message #13176]

Sun, 09 August 2020 03:37

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Yep, the different size is what threw the flag. I was checking if this was a known topic. A future thread, I hope, if I can find which one it was...

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13797 is a reply to message #13176]

Thu, 24 September 2020 17:00

Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt

Gruen Authority

Barney Green wrote on Sat, 08 August 2020 14:05

Yes, pictures please. I could not locate other examples but hte Square 35, but the number indicates, that there should be more...

Here are a couple different Squares, besides 35, for reference, Square 31 and Square 36.
Both from 1923.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7185&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7185&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7186&private=0

.

Edit; might as well throw 35 in there for ref, too. Here it is advertised w Cartouche 4. Same as Cartouche 4 in Gruen book.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7187&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7187&private=0

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Matthias

[Updated on: Thu, 24 September 2020 17:05]

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13799 is a reply to message #13797]

Thu, 24 September 2020 18:00

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

What about these 3 being WG18 to WG20? May be the squares were merged into the WG section?

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Thu, 24 September 2020 18:01]

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13800 is a reply to message #13799]

Thu, 24 September 2020 18:29

Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt

Gruen Authority

Barney Green wrote on Thu, 24 September 2020 12:00

What about these 3 being WG18 to WG20? May be the squares were merged into the WG section?

Yes, matches or very close matches, nice. The merged theory is looking strong.

Matthias

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13803 is a reply to message #13800]

Fri, 25 September 2020 04:13

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Good references, Barney. You’ve got me wondering if they merged or were always integrated. If integrated, are there enough in WG + WR sections to get to 30 by WR18?

If merged, it was earlier than I thought. The 707,000 Ultra caseback visible on WR45 is telling. I never noticed that before. I also found a WR31 (or 32) with UQ case 731019, which I believe is mid 1923.

Still digging for my odd sized WR35.

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13805 is a reply to message #13803]

Fri, 25 September 2020 07:51

Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

My theory:
Counting of Squares started around 1920 or may be even earlier with the first Paris Square around 1916. When the Masterbook has been started Gruen had already been at about Square #30 and only the last ones became part of the new WR/WG system.
Just a theory...

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Fri, 25 September 2020 08:01]

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Re: Wristlet square [message #13806 is a reply to message #13805]

Fri, 25 September 2020 13:35

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Sounds plausible to me. Maybe there’s a men’s model or two in the count, too.

Anyway, I think the transition/simplification in model naming happened in 1924. Here’s Dec 6 1924 Saturday evening post. No longer “Square XX” but now “WR18”. You guys have much bigger ad collections, so maybe Square continued after or ended sooner.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7199&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7199&private=0

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Re: Wristlet square [message #15497 is a reply to message #13806]

Wed, 15 September 2021 13:42

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

More "lost Squares": look on page 12 in the Gruen Watch Catalog. Squares 10, 11, 12. So Square was a separate category. I'm still in agreement that they were folded into the wristlets and/or other places later, but imo those would be new models (updated movements or designs), not retroactive.

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Re: Wristlet square [message #15513 is a reply to message #15497]

Wed, 15 September 2021 20:39

afire
Messages: 1344
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Case wrote on Wed, 15 September 2021 08:42

I'm still in agreement that they were folded into the wristlets and/or other places later, but imo those would be new models (updated movements or designs), not retroactive.

On the other hand, there are indications that Gruen did retroactively fold existing models into a new category if the model continued to be made into the new classigication scheme. Examples being Strap 1, which was M20R in the 1918 catalog, and Quadrons 39 and 40, which started out as Strap 30 and Strap 40.

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Re: Wristlet square [message #15523 is a reply to message #15513]

Thu, 16 September 2021 15:10

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

afire wrote on Wed, 15 September 2021 16:39

On the other hand, there are indications that Gruen did retroactively fold existing models into a new category if the model continued to be made into the new classigication scheme. Examples being Strap 1, which was M20R in the 1918 catalog, and Quadrons 39 and 40, which started out as Strap 30 and Strap 40.

I guess I'm mostly referring to the reclass at the end of 1923, where Strap 1 / Strap # first appears and Wristlet numbers seem to follow. And yours is a good theory, sort of a "keep the best, leave the rest." Maybe that's why Strap 1 in Dec 1923 NYT ad says "$25, $30 & up", listing one option (Green Gold filled) not in the Master Book and implying there are others. They're running out old stock. I'll go with it!

So Strap 1 is a candidate, also a couple of the WG & WR wristlets. Even so, there must've been precious few older Strap watches kept: there were only 36 Strap models by the time the original (Strap) Quadrons launched. "Reinforced" was first used in November 1922, so we know Strap 18 and beyond came after that. The 827/826/825s are all stamped with Aegler's new setting patent from December 1922, so we know they were introduced in 1923 or after, maybe late 1923 from Liz's dial patent. That takes us back to Strap 14. Others with more ad knowledge may see more. Either way, a host of models seem to have been disco'd in 1923. Was that the end of the round convertibles?

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