Home » The Gruen Model Database » 1940's » Veri-Thin Scientist (When is an Import not an import?)
Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14833] |
Wed, 05 May 2021 13:57 |
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Case
Messages: 1178 Registered: May 2019 Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Model name: Veri-Thin Scientist
Type: variant of Import # 252 (or 245 or 249, per below)
Period/date: 1941-1943
Gender: Men’s
Case Maker: Pioneer
Case Material: 10k Pink GF / Guildite back -- bezel appears to be sterling base, from the discoloration
Case Serial: 6029908
Case Style no: 411SS-494
Caliber: 410SS Precision (17j)
Movement Maker: Gruen Watch Co
Movement Serial: 714682
Bracelet: 12k pink gold filled "grains of rice" link bracelet
Other info: Stamped with US patent # 2,229,979, covering the case design by Pioneer Watch Case Company.
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[Updated on: Sat, 15 May 2021 15:03] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14834 is a reply to message #14833] |
Wed, 05 May 2021 14:05 |
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Case
Messages: 1178 Registered: May 2019 Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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This one recently found a new home among us. A rarity to see a style number here—most were imports. So rare, 494 was not previously tied to a caliber number in the style number database. But it will cover 410, 410ss & 411, 411ss.
Hard to capture the pink gold, but the dial color is clear. “Scientist” is the only model of this type I’ve seen so far offered in pink gold, shown in grainy image in our 1940s ads thread. Description in 1941 ad matches, except the bracelet: 17j, sweep seconds, pink gf case & Guildite back. Ad is a stretch bracelet, but this one matches the case color exactly. If not original, it's a sweet addition.
Dating it: Patent dates to Jan 1941, as does ad (June) and style number 494. The movement sn others have dated to 1943. The first service mark appears to be from July 1941, a second from Nov 1947. I’m guessing 1941 is indeed the make.
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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14875 is a reply to message #14872] |
Sun, 16 May 2021 02:32 |
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Case
Messages: 1178 Registered: May 2019 Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Just noticing, Jack, that one of yours is only 131 cases away, so likely in the same run. Assuming the other (473k) is still a Pioneer case, just with Pioneer dropping the lead digit?
I am just seeing that the sister ad ("the doctor's perfect watch") shows the VT Specialist. It, too, like the VT Scientist came in both YGF or Pink with Guildite back. But I do see the lugs better in that one, and it is not a match. At least we know the exact issues where the full page ads debuted. Perhaps one will surface. Guess this is where that 1940s counter catalog that disappeared would come in quite handy, to see these other models named!
Anyway, regarding the Pioneer/Kramer patent, it focuses on a full method of constructing the recesses & gaskets to make a case watertight, not just the crystal. Have to look at a Pioneer and a Gruen true import side by side to see what similarities there are. It does sound quite similar.
Full disclosure: I am not familiar with the other patents you mentioned.
From Samuel Kramer's patent filing:
Quote:Having thus described my invention and illustrated its use, what I claim as new and desire to secure by Letters Patent, is:
1. A watchcase comprising a movement ring, a bezel having a bore adapted to receive said movement ring in close engagement, an annular recess in the upper peripheral portion of said ring, an annular recess in the lower peripheral portion of said ring, a back provided with a recess complementary to said last recess and having an outer wall portion in the form of a flange closely engaging the periphery of said movement ring, and a gasket seated in each of the recesses of said ring, a crystal having peripheral portions extending between the bezel and the upper gasket, and means for drawing said bezel and said back together, whereby said gaskets will be compressed and will effect a watertight joint between said ring on the one hand, and the crystal, the bezel and the back on the other hand.
2. In combination in a watchcase, a movement ring, a bezel having a bore to receive said movement ring in relatively close engagement, a recess running around the upper peripheral portion of said ring, a compressible gasket seated in said ring, a crystal having peripheral portions extending between the bezel and the gasket, and means for drawing said bezel against said crystal, whereby said crystal will press against said gasket and will compress it axially and expand it radially so as to cause its peripheral portions to press against the wall of the bore in said bezel, and to effect a Watertight joint between said ring on the one hand and said crystal and said bezel on the other hand.
3. In combination in a watchcase, a circularly contoured movement ring, a back having a peripheral Wall of an inner diameter to receive a portion of the movement ring, an annular recess in the end of said movement ring, a compressible gasket seated in said recess, said gasket being of a diameter to engage the inner surface of said peripheral wall of the back, and means to press said back against said gasket, whereby said gasket will be axially compressed and its peripheral portions will expand radially and press against the inner surface of said peripheral wall so as to make a watertight joint.
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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #18779 is a reply to message #16683] |
Fri, 05 January 2024 19:49 |
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JackW
Messages: 1931 Registered: May 2013 Location: Denver
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Gruen Authority Head Janitor Site Admin |
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This might be too thin of sauce, but the other magazine, the Contractor's and Engineer's monthly has an image of the ad that was scanned in Oct 2021 and posted here:
https://archive.org/details/sim_contractors-and-engineers-ma gazine_1941-10_38_10/page/14/mode/2up?view=theater
a little better:
from the photo of the proof I took back in 2013:
What is now discernable is that the lugs appear to be tear-shaped. The hands are obelisque (-ish) in appearance and are quite distinctive. That it came on an expansion band; an important aspect as Barney has noted that band type will trigger a name change.
With the pink gold fill, the Guildite back and the type dial, this is a good match to the strap 462 in Bruce's guide, p. 135.
So, with a metal band it is the VT Scientist
with a strap, it would be the VT Specialist
The case style is also used on the VT Rickenbacker, which vintage ads (1943) lists as coming in both pink and yellow GF.
....and the VT Colonial, which my notes indicate came with a Roman numeral dial.
I'll still keep looking for a copy of either magazine.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
[Updated on: Fri, 05 January 2024 19:50] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #18780 is a reply to message #18779] |
Fri, 05 January 2024 20:29 |
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Jenneke
Messages: 1904 Registered: May 2013 Location: Netherlands
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Gruen Authority |
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Does look like a possible picture match. Only that scientist seems to have more curve instead of the straight line on the inside of the lug? Or its what I see in that blurry picture. 🤣
Ok, so if that scientist has these fancy lugs, the watch posted by Case above, hasn't been identified yet.
You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
[Updated on: Fri, 05 January 2024 21:08] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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