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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #13510 is a reply to message #13485] |
Thu, 27 August 2020 21:48   |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks! I think it's one of the coolest watches in my collection. It is also one of the hardest to capture on camera and I am never satisfied with the results. The dial glows gold and shifts in colour.
No known ads of this one... I was wondering about opinions on the crown...it is a replacement right? Original? I'm not sure I have seen one exactly like it but, again, I do not know.
Matthias
[Updated on: Thu, 27 August 2020 21:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #13515 is a reply to message #13514] |
Fri, 28 August 2020 04:26 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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afire wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 21:11Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 16:48I was wondering about opinions on the crown...it is a replacement right? Original? I'm not sure I have seen one exactly like it but, again, I do not know.
It sure looks right to me. 100+ years later and before some higher level of standardization, to have a silver crown appropriate for the time is about as good as it gets. It's silver, it's the shape of the time. If not original, then it's an appropriate replacement.
Ok. Thanks for the feedback.
Jenneke, yes, that's it, I was aware of the watch being featured on his website, I recognized the watch when it came up for sale.
Gary- I don't think Paul owned the watch... but I don't it's history....It was a U.S. based sale.
Matthias
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17925 is a reply to message #13552] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 00:15 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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I'm with John...definitely a mens vibe & the early ladies' models were smaller.
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17926 is a reply to message #17925] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 01:01 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 17:15I'm with John...definitely a mens vibe & the early ladies' models were smaller.
That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially on other people's watches. 😉 I have a for sure ladies wrislet from about this year that is this size w/ this movement.
Anyway, I do not believe watch identification for gender is subjective in this period but is based on a few key criteria.
According to research by David Boettcher, this is very, very likely a ladies wristlet.
https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/trenchwatches.php#manslad ies
Matthias
[Updated on: Thu, 29 December 2022 01:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17927 is a reply to message #17926] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 02:18 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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I just think this model evokes more of a feminine vibe of the day:
https://www.vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 291&goto=1185&#msg_1185;
I've also never seen that particular movement in a ladies model.
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17928 is a reply to message #17927] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 05:06 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 19:18I just think this model evokes more of a feminine vibe of the day:
https://www.vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 291&goto=1185&#msg_1185;
I've also never seen that particular movement in a ladies model.
Yes, that particular model does have a more feminine vibe. Not sure how that applies to my model.
David says "there is also a long history of women wearing military looking items during times of war".
You can point to any decade of Gruen wristlets and I'll show you mostly very "lady" like examples...but also some very obvious "manly" like models, meant for women. Gruen always had diversity in its lines.
At 11 ligne cal 94 is def an "in between" calibre but I have now seen this calibre in *numerous*, clearly ladies models.
Matthias
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17930 is a reply to message #17928] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 05:34 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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My bad, I was confusing your movement with another one I was looking at. I also have several models with this same movement. I still would not classify yours as a ladies model.
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17932 is a reply to message #17930] |
Thu, 29 December 2022 05:58 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 22:34My bad, I was confusing your movement with another one I was looking at. I also have several models with this same movement. I still would not classify yours as a ladies model.
Again, that is fine, classify it however you'd like.
Of course, the real challenge would be finding this calibre in a model that is clearly for men. (Besides mine)
Matthias
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17947 is a reply to message #17944] |
Fri, 30 December 2022 01:09 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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JackW wrote on Thu, 29 December 2022 17:14Ephemerald wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 18:01That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially on other people's watches. 😉
What else is there to do than to opine on other people's watches?
Also.... I doubt that a Gruen watch would originally be cased in one stamped "United W Co."
https://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Rubi n-Casselhoff&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker
Unless I'm missing something? Maybe Gruen was supplying movements to United W Co? Are there other examples?
Again,😉
Heres a bit of Gruen history to get you up to date.
United Watch Co (United, United Watches, United W.Co, Unity,etc) is a well documented, longtime known daughter company of Gruen Manufacturing. It was founded December 9th, 1910 in Madretsch. Run by Eduard Gasser.
Matthias
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17951 is a reply to message #17947] |
Fri, 30 December 2022 21:13 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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> It was founded December 9th, 1910 in Madretsch. Run by Eduard Gasser.
And merged with the Gruen Watch Manfucturing Co late 1914 / early 1915. The decision was made at the general meeting June 30th, 1914. March 13th, 1915 the company was officially dissolved and merged.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17957 is a reply to message #17955] |
Sat, 31 December 2022 21:38 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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Jenneke, it is not possible it is a converted pocket watch.
Calibre 94 was not only used in ladies pocket watches but also used in wrist watches. That is simply a fact. I have physical evidence of that in my collection, plus numerous examples of it in photo evidence.
I don't mind speculation on gender but there is no doubt about this watches originality and authenticity.
Speculation resonates with me most when it is accompanied with something tangible. Something to at least point to. Speculation that stems from a feeling or vibration has little meaning to me.
That's why I found afires ad so interesting. Never seen that one before.
I am open to the possibility that this could potentially be a mans watch, as I have been from the beginning, none of this has been proven, but the evidence has me leaning towards a woman's watch is all. 🤷♀️
PS, subseconds has never defined gender. Hinged loop ends seem to be more common on ladies wristwatches and so far only seen this calibre in ladies Gruen watches.
Matthias
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2022 23:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17962 is a reply to message #17957] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 10:10 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Matt,
I am with you and I have no doubt that the watch has to be classified as a ladies watch. The watch with attached band will once have had looked like this:
And here the proof that some of the early ladies watches had this odd orientation and sub seconds:
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 10:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17966 is a reply to message #17963] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 16:03 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Probably also worth mentioning that to my knowledge the first man's Gruen wrist watches were advertised in April 1915, which would indicate that there should not be any "United" trench watches for gents.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17968 is a reply to message #17966] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 16:37 |
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Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands
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Gruen Authority |
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Barney Green wrote on Sun , 01 January 2023 17:03Probably also worth mentioning that to my knowledge the first man's Gruen wrist watches were advertised in April 1915, which would indicate that there should not be any "United" trench watches for gents.
Nice reasoning.
Quote: Jenneke, it is not possible it is a converted pocket watch.
I was considering the conversion because of the hinge and position of the 12, not bc of the movement. But no doubt you can judge it better because you have this nice early wrist watch.  And the plain back is making is a tell tail sign which I didnt notice before.
You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 16:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17970 is a reply to message #17968] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 23:24 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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Jenneke, it def is worth considering but I eliminated it a long time ago.
Bernd. Thanks alot for these Gruen ads. It shows that not only some early wristlets have subseconds but first ad shows that some ladies models seem to be almost strictly utilitarian. Though I still see the beauty in their simplicity.
I need to make a correction. This variant of movement with the subseconds is calibre 95.
Matthias
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 23:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Early Wristlet [message #17972 is a reply to message #17971] |
Mon, 02 January 2023 00:34 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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JackW wrote on Sun, 01 January 2023 17:13Barney's images can also be used to suggest that the lugs were altered from a fixed hinged band to a hinged loop to accommodate a ribbon. Not saying that is the case, but another possibility for the life of the watch. More than enough examples of altered lug styles on watches completed in the period to back this up as a hypothesis.
Ok. Point taken. I agree that it seems it can be used to fit a narrative. I see that a lot.
My take is, not really, while Barney's ads do show the similarities..... the ads are not showing any images of my exact model but with different lugs on it.
There are multiple obvious differences between my model and the models in his examples, and in fact, in any known examples in any known Gruen ads.
So it is not quite as framed, "hey, there's the exact watch! but with different lugs...hmmm"
Theory does not add up, but totally my opinion, bc if the existence of altered lugs on watches puts every unknown model, with absolutely no signs of alteration whatsoever, into question...oh my.
It is a rare watch.
In a loupe it looks factory. As it does without one, actually  Clearly it matches.
Personally, other than gender, I think Paul nailed it and at least, accurately understood it was Gruen.
I also think, it's possible an documentation pops up some day that confirms the gender, either way.
Matthias
[Updated on: Mon, 02 January 2023 02:55] Report message to a moderator |
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