Home » The Gruen Model Database » 1940's » The Veri-Thin 'Adams'
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16660 is a reply to message #16658] |
Wed, 01 June 2022 05:11   |
Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
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Gruen Authority |
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Nice score!!! Strange...The stamp "GUILDITE BACK" on your watch would suggest that your caseback is stainless steel. Yet you're stating it's a "rhodium plated sterling case back"
Is that right? That's why I am confused... so I am curious as to how you came to that conclusion. The Chicago 42 ad states "Guildite back"....
Star did make the 406 - 459 model casebacks in both Guildite and Sterling.
If your model caseback is indeed Guildite as it's stamped, then on your outside caseback it should have a Star stamp of the double headed eagle clutching laurels and "GRUEN BASE METAL".
If it is silver then your inside caseback should be stamped "STERLING BACK".
[Updated on: Wed, 01 June 2022 05:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16666 is a reply to message #16665] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 02:22 |
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JackW
Messages: 2144
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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I base my assessment purely on qualitative aspects:
1) where the case back and the bezel have rubbed together at the snaps, the gold fill is intact, but the case back has blackened at the wear. The plate being far thinner on the back than the GF on the bezel.
2) work hardened silver has a distinct tone to it when it jingles against other metal. If you have a quarter or dime that is pre-1964, you can hear this too. I hear this with the caseback. Otherwise I too would have thought that this was just stainless.
Yet, short of an XRF scan of the metal content (or some destructive qualitative assessment) it is possible that I am wrong. Mostly about the rhodium plating; it might be chromed silver alloy. But I think rhodium is more likely, because of the reactive properties of chrome plate.
Personally, I think the markings are different, because the early WWII silver case backs by Star were chrome plated silver. If you have seen the worm tracks, this is a reaction between the two metals under moist (think skin contact). Here is an example in a Star case marked for sterling:
This is from a VT Practitioner. I have a later one that is marked "Guildite" on Sterling and also no mention of the goldfilled components.
I think when they switched to the rhodium, Gruen reverted back to calling it "Guildite". Maybe to be consistent with the marketing (*speculation). Rhodium is not reactive with silver and is a far more durable, albeit a more expensive material. It is marked "Basemetal" on the outside as Matt suggests for the "Guildite" case.
but, you know I can still be wrong.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16669 is a reply to message #16668] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 04:21 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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I still doubt that they silvered Guildite. Just doesn't make sense.
I don't doubt that Star/Gruen experimented with differnet war time options, but I bet Gruen quickly put the nosh on those options that didn't rise to their standards, which makes Jack's watchcase quite the collectible.
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
[Updated on: Thu, 02 June 2022 05:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16670 is a reply to message #16669] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 11:01 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1756
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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I agree that it does not make sense to place guildite on sterling so I suspect that it indeed is a guildite back and the bezel is gold plated on a sterling base.
I have one of those which has a 1943 dedication, serial number is 03xxxx and it says "STAR WATCH CASE CO. 10K G.F. BEZEL - STERLING BACK". This one clearly has a sterling back not plated and the bezel is gold plated base metal.
Regarding the model name of Jack's watch, isn't the VT Adams with it's expansion strap the same as the 1940/41 VT Nimrod with leather strap? May be Gruen needed to make some more money or thought that an expansion band sells better during war time?
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Thu, 02 June 2022 11:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16673 is a reply to message #16672] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 17:05 |
Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
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Gruen Authority |
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I kindly disagree. I highly doubt Gruen is producing rhodium plated sterling silver case backs and stamping them Guildite. Every which way I look at it, doesn't add up.
Jacks watch could be an anomaly, if it actually is what it's theorized.
Of course, I can only speak from my experience also but I've worked with, in, on and under stainless steel for the last 25 years, and I can spot it a mile away, in the rain, bad photos, whatever,...From what I see of Jacks inside caseback, that is Guildite, it absolutely has the look of stainless. Unfortunately, I do not see a pic of the outside caseback of debated watch, so literally impossible to even truly discuss it.
[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2022 07:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16675 is a reply to message #16673] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 17:18 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1756
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Matt,
this is in line with my findings and watches. If Jack could look up the outside of the case back it may help. All my Star made Guildite backs have the Star Logo and GRUEN BASE METAL marking, while all Sterling backs are not marked at the outside.
But this is just from the watches I own and may not be a proof although it statistically makes another 10 samples to tighten the theory.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16678 is a reply to message #16675] |
Thu, 02 June 2022 19:36 |
thesnark17
Messages: 655
Registered: January 2017
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Gruen Master |
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I agree with Ephemerald. I also looked at that caseback and said, "has to be Guildite", when I made my initial post in this thread. It has the "look" about it.
I've definitely seen mistakes in case markings from this period, but I've never seen anything as wrong as this marking would be, if it is wrong.
For the record, I once found a Gruen from this era with a Guildite back that was magnetic. Not only was it attracted to a magnet, you could pick it up with an unmagnetized screwdriver... needless to say, that's atypical behavior in a stainless steel! The movement would run out of the case but not in it, and it took me forever to find out why (since I "knew" that Gruen's stainless steel is nonmagnetic). And then forever to fix the problem - I ended by blowtorching the case back to anneal it, which finally worked. Never found anything else like that one though. I wonder what happened to it to induce the magnetism in the first place.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 June 2022 19:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16679 is a reply to message #16670] |
Fri, 03 June 2022 02:01 |
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JackW
Messages: 2144
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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Gruen Authority
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Barney Green wrote on Thu, 02 June 2022 05:01Regarding the model name of Jack's watch, isn't the VT Adams with it's expansion strap the same as the 1940/41 VT Nimrod with leather strap? May be Gruen needed to make some more money or thought that an expansion band sells better during war time?
Here is an image of the Veri-thin Nimrod:
That name sure has not aged well. 
Anyway.... it is certainly the same case design from the ads, as the Adams. Isn't the first time that Gruen seemingly swapped a feature, such as band or case color to justify a different name. Thank you Barney; I've made some changes to the OP to reflect this.
Glad I can still engender a lively conversation.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2022 02:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #16684 is a reply to message #16680] |
Fri, 03 June 2022 06:18 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1756
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks a lot for the education, Gary, as I indeed was only aware of the first two definitions.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #20214 is a reply to message #16684] |
Fri, 20 February 2026 05:17 |
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JackW
Messages: 2144
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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I was thinking about this post recently and the discussion on the composition of the case back: Is it stainless or is it silver alloy of some sort.
A non destructive test is to measure the specific gravity, which can be converted to density, but honestly the value calculated from specific gravity are nearly the same. It is easy and I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. I only feel better that no one else on this thread did either.
Jewelry grade sterling (935 silver) has a density of about 10 g/cm^3.
Stainless steel per Google's AI has a density in the range of 7.5 and 8.0g/cm^3
Also here.
That said, I measured the case back from this watch and calculated a specific gravity of 9.37. I also measured the specific gravity of one that I believe is the non-war production of the same model (stainless/Guildite back) and got a value of 8.38. This higher value is consistent with some especially malleable austenitic stainless steel.
I also measured case backs with clear "sterling back" marking getting 9.4 and the corresponding "pre-war" of the same model yielding 8.4
To check if I am doing things right, i did the same for a sterling ring (no solder) and got 9.96
I also checked to see if the WWII era US made 5-cent piece which is made of 56% copper, 35% silver, and 9% manganese and has a reported density of 8.92. I did the same for a 1944 5-cent piece and got 8.75.
A combination of 70% silver and 30% zinc or 75% silver and 25% manganese will yield a density of 9.4. However, I think zinc is the likely alloy. Manganese was more strictly rationed. 70% silver would not be sterling. Zinc is a common alloying metal with silver. It adds hardness to the mix. However, the AI says that a 70/30 mix is not cold malleable.
A Swiss-cased Pan Am case back yielded a specific gravity/density of 7.1. Huh? A post war Guildite marked case back from an Autowind all Swiss case gave 7.5. Air being trapped in a recess of the case can lower the density value derived via this method. So, this kind of error (air) causes an underestimate.
So, while this is not conclusive, it is my opinion, this hints that the back of the "at question" case back is not stainless steel. This test also has an advantage: You can easily repeat this experiment at home with your own case backs. Just need a good scale.
I followed this as it was pretty straight forward. Rather than string, I used a piece of thin copper wire.
http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com/jhbnyc/articles/specif ic_gravity.htm
I know a lot of the people that commented in this thread have pared back their participation here, but I do welcome your comments.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
[Updated on: Fri, 20 February 2026 15:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #20216 is a reply to message #20214] |
Fri, 20 February 2026 19:03 |
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Jenneke
Messages: 2093
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands
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Gruen Authority |
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I guess I am to lazy to do the test. But my excuse, I dont have a guildite back on sterling case. 😊but that test gives interesting results. Does fit with my head thinking: rationing on metals does also mean rationing on stainless. It would be weird to have silver as a base metal for the bezel, but not for the back.
The silver “base metal” (gf, sterling) cases I have, have a specific tarnish. The silver definitely goes black over time and on the wear spots even more.
Anyhow , it would be interesting to scratch the caseback on the inside and do a silver test.
You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
[Updated on: Fri, 20 February 2026 19:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Veri-Thin 'Adams' [message #20221 is a reply to message #20218] |
Sat, 21 February 2026 17:12 |
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JackW
Messages: 2144
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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Gruen Authority
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there are some Swiss made 6-point case back models in the 1943 period, that are all Guildite. Where the mixed metal Swiss cases, with Guildite backs, are stamped "Back". The all Guildite ones are not, just noted with Guildite. None though with a 24-hour dial style other than the snap-back cases.
I might break this off of the Adams thread and make it a new one. If you want to discuss more. I can show pictures of what I mean too.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
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