Home » The Gruen Model Database » 1910's and prior » 1st Generation Verithin (AKA LV1, LV2 and LDG(2))
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| Re: Gruen Verithin Pocket Watch Identification [message #8324 is a reply to message #8322] |
Wed, 16 August 2017 10:10   |
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Thojil
Messages: 650
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France
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Gruen Master |
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Nice! That is a very clean 1st generation Verithin you have there.
The Verithin movement was developed by Gruen in an effort to make watches thinner without compromising on quality and accuracy.
"A New Ideal. The production of the 16 size did not satisfy him. He saw that all watches were not only too large, but too thick. He determined that the Gruen watch should be the pioneer thin watch as it had been the pioneer 16 size watch the pioneer watch to reduce watch thickness as it had been to reduce watch size"(7)
In publications Gruen is mentioning that the initiative was already taken by Dietrich Gruen and that he succeeded in 1896(1) however it took another 6 years before the Verithin design was ready for production.
The new 17 Ligne movement, based on a clever layout of the wheel train in three planes instead of the traditional four was only 7mm thick, reducing the height by one-third compared to a traditional 12 size movement.
The 1st generation Verithin, referred to as LV1, LV2 and LDG(2) was introduced in 1902(1). Very little is known about this 1st generation other than that it came in three different basic designs.
Available were an Open Face and Hunter Case layout both featuring a single piece center bridge in 15 or 16 jewel grade. And a high grade marked Verithin "Superior" (17j?), featuring a separate escape bridge, a different balance cock with swan neck regulator and different barrel bridge design. Of material available to me it seems that the latter version also has a different pillar plate based on the deviating position of case and dial screws.
 
The examples that I have cataloged suggest that from serial number 339k the Superior grade was dropped and the regular single piece center bridge 16 jewel grade is replaced by a downgraded "Superior" design, losing the swan neck regulator and one jewel (tbc). Your movement is an example of this change.
Confirmation of the "Superior" features need to wait until I can do a physical comparison. The correlation between caliber reference and movement specification remains a mystery.
Serial numbers started with 120k (lowest no. known to me 120,573) and continued until possibly 130k (highest no. known 128,112) when suddenly serial numbers change and the first digit becomes a 3 (lowest no. known to me 327,646 / highest no. known 347,211). The background to this change I can only speculate on so far.
The design of the 1st generation Verithins was consistent until the introduction of the 2nd generation about 1910.
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| Re: Gruen Verithin Pocket Watch Identification [message #8325 is a reply to message #8324] |
Wed, 16 August 2017 11:51 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks, Thojil, for this very good explanation of the early Verithin movements!
May be one short addition regarding the case:
Also the case is absolutely authentic. The National Watch Case Co. was owned by Gruen, they aquired the Queen City Watch Case Mfg Co in 1898 and since 1902 were running it under the National Watch Case Co. name.
Looks like you have a very nice 1908 / 1909 Gruen Verithin!
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Gruen Verithin Pocket Watch Identification [message #8329 is a reply to message #8328] |
Wed, 16 August 2017 19:04 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Thojil,
what do you think about this ad? Is it really showing a Veri-Thin movement? Serial number could be 124xxx, really hard to read, the ad is from 1906. If it really is a Verithin, it has again a different bridge layout.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Gruen Verithin Pocket Watch Identification [message #8330 is a reply to message #8329] |
Thu, 17 August 2017 10:13 |
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Thojil
Messages: 650
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France
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Gruen Master |
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That is indeed also a Verithin movement, but an early high grade Verithin Precision "V1", "V2" or "V3". Great stuff, I'm very thrilled to see this add as the date 1906 changes all the assumptions I had on the introduction of the Verithin Precision movements.
The only available information so far was the Charles Cleves dating table showing that the Verithin "V1", "V2", "V3" Precision movements were introduced in 1910. I was always struggling with the introduction date as I kept on finding examples of these movements with the same pillar plate design as the regular Verithin "L" calibers. This was suggesting to me that the Verithin "V" Precision caliber must have been introduced at an earlier date.
A second point I was struggling with could also be explained by your add. These early Verithin "V" Precision movements have the same serial numbers starting with "12". As said Gruen was using a sequential serial numbering covering all the different calibers they were producing since 1902 (early 16 size Precision calibers 56/52/50/21/35 serials 12xxxx). The early Verithin "V" Precision movements serial numbers that I recorded did not "fit in" and should have been produced earlier than 1910. The 124xxx serial in 1906 would align the "V" Precision numbering with the other movement ranges.
Hypothesizing further this could also explain the serial number starting digit change of the regular Verithin "L" calibers from "1" to "3", which must have happened around the same time of the ad in 1906 (maybe 1905) as far as I can tell.
Cal.L Verithin serial 128,112 - Highest serial found with "1"
Cal.L Verithin serial 327,511 - Lowest serial found with "3"
I have found serial 332,282 fitted to a Wadsworth case serial 306,521. Case serials 306,436 and 306,511 are confirmed to be sold to M. Kohler Jewelery Store in 1907 (Gruen invoice dated Sep 12, 1907)
Cal.56 serial 127,101 - Case dated June 1906
Cal.21 serial 127,596 - Case dated 1906
The fact that the regular Verithin "L" as well as the Verithin Precision "V" movement were produced in parallel may have caused issues in production or spare parts ordering. This could have driven the decision to differentiate the caliber series by changing the serial number.
The picture is matching the ad, a Verithin Precision featuring the unique Grossmann designed "moustache" pallet fork, which initially was only used in the larger 16 size Precision calibers 56/52/50/21/35/45.
Here are a couple of pictures showing the evolution of the "V" Precision caliber following the 1st generation. Gruen has been modifying the click design at least two times before the final design (picture serial 141,797). The pillar plate changed around serial number 133,800
Edit : correction of cal. "L" serial numbers M. Kohler invoice
[Updated on: Thu, 12 September 2019 16:25] Report message to a moderator |
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