Vintage Gruen: 1930's » Carre B2

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Carre B2 [message #8618]

Mon, 01 January 2018 15:14

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Model name : Carré ?
Type : Pocket watch
Period/date : ca 1931
Gender : Men and Women

Case Maker : Wadsworth
Case Material : white metal
Case Serial : B2925
Case Style no : 107

Caliber : 315 or 885?
Movement Maker : ?
Movement Serial: 222747

Other info : checkerboard guilloche dial. U.S.A. pat. appl'd for. Inscription WEB. Movement is a Gruen Guild unadjusted.

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Attachment: Carre movement.jpg
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Attachment: Carre style no.jpg
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Attachment: Carre closed.jpg
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Attachment: Carre front.jpg
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Attachment: Carre back inscription.jpg
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Attachment: Carre case back.jpg
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You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

[Updated on: Sun, 04 February 2018 16:48] by Moderator

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8619 is a reply to message #8618]

Mon, 01 January 2018 15:18

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

The case material is unknown. Could this one have a missing skin? A.k.a.does B2 in the serial have a meaning. In the guild book a Carre with lizard grain leather is shown with number 5b2.

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8621 is a reply to message #8619]

Mon, 01 January 2018 15:45

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

I have not seen other serial numbers for the carres, so it might be a coincidence, but the B2 prefix might as well be indicating the case style.
The B was used to indicate leather coating,whereas H was laquer. Other letters were indicating pure metal finishes. Would really be interesting to see other case serials.

I definitely believe that your watch is missing a leather skin.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8629 is a reply to message #8618]

Mon, 01 January 2018 17:12

kastner
Messages: 339
Registered: May 2013
Location: Pasadena CA

Gruen Guildsman

I think that the Carre is a really fun watch, thanks for sharing yours Jenneke.

I have SNs E1734 and E1314. I've never thought they had coatings (and am on the lookout for ones that do)

The one with the replacement button also has a custom belt clasp. I like having original watches and wasn't thrilled when I first saw this at auction. But after thinking about it more I came to appreciate that someone really used this watch and fixed/modified it for his needs.

index.php?t=getfile&id=3572&private=0

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,

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Attachment: Carres.jpg
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Attachment: Carre Clasp.jpg
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Re: Carre B2? [message #8636 is a reply to message #8629]

Mon, 01 January 2018 19:12

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Aha, E numbers! In the Gruin guild supplement there is a "Plain butler finished tarnish proof nickel case with 15 jewel movement." And the name is Carré 5 E.

Cary has some enameled ones. Curious to see what kind of style numbers are on those.

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8639 is a reply to message #8636]

Mon, 01 January 2018 19:39

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

If they would start with an H that would already be a kind of proof for the theory.

The brushing of Kastners E series shows that this was the intended surface. It is missing on the B, I am almost sure it originally was a leather coated one.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8642 is a reply to message #8639]

Mon, 01 January 2018 20:01

JackW
Messages: 1931
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
Head Janitor
Site Admin

Very nice watches! I have plans for acquiring a Carre someday....

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8646 is a reply to message #8642]

Mon, 01 January 2018 20:12

timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

Carre is on my want list too!

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8672 is a reply to message #8636]

Thu, 04 January 2018 14:24

Thojil
Messages: 650
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

Jenneke wrote on Mon, 01 January 2018 20:12

Aha, E numbers! In the Gruin guild supplement there is a "Plain butler finished tarnish proof nickel case with 15 jewel movement." And the name is Carré 5 E. Cary has some enameled ones. Curious to see what kind of style numbers are on those.

I kept many pictures, but unfortunately only few of them show the case numbers.

E2351 - brushed steel case
E3489 - brushed steel case

And B1121, which looks to be a steel case originally, but not sure? It doesn't seem to have this clear thinning on the edges as with Jenneke's Carre to allow for the leather.

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8675 is a reply to message #8672]

Thu, 04 January 2018 15:39

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

May be that the B1-watch was recased in a brushed steel one?

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8678 is a reply to message #8675]

Thu, 04 January 2018 16:38

Thojil
Messages: 650
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

That would be an explanation

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8682 is a reply to message #8678]

Thu, 04 January 2018 19:32

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Found some enamel examples with google:
https:// auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/1928/lot/660 190
https:// www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-gruen-carre-purse-poc ket-117192751
Both don't have a letter before the number.

And from my serial excel one other example of brushed steel: E3187

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

[Updated on: Thu, 04 January 2018 20:18]

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8684 is a reply to message #8682]

Thu, 04 January 2018 21:29

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

Is it enamel or is it lacquer? The second watch is very much like my incoming Alpinova.

Here is a picture of it.

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Attachment: Alpinova.jpg
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Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Thu, 04 January 2018 21:52]

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8690 is a reply to message #8684]

Sun, 07 January 2018 22:35

C. Hurt
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2013

Gruen Guildsman

I believe Jenneke's Carré was originally covered with leather or reptile skin. The narrow groove on the edge of the cover without the opening button was used to secure the skin. Also, I have a leather covered one with case number B2669.

I also have a similar brushed nickel cased example with case number E1923. These are both Wadsworth cases with 315 movements.

I also have one enameled one at the moment that also has the 315 movement but it's in a larger Swiss case marked "Eclipso" which was some sort of joint venture with LIP. These cases do not have the Wadsworth style case numbers.

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8695 is a reply to message #8690]

Tue, 09 January 2018 18:22

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Well, I don't think the skill of covering a case with leather still exists. I will keep it undressed. Wink

Wink

For now I am pretty convinced the character on the case says something about the case model (ie material).

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8697 is a reply to message #8695]

Tue, 09 January 2018 18:40

JackW
Messages: 1931
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
Head Janitor
Site Admin

Jenneke wrote on Tue, 09 January 2018 18:22

Well, I don't think the skill of covering a case with leather still exists.

Reapplying leather or even snakeskin is one thing, but I think an even rarer skill is fired enamel work.

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8698 is a reply to message #8697]

Tue, 09 January 2018 19:26

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Youtube has a lot of jewelry enameling tutorials: f.e. link and even books can be found. Anyone ever tried it?

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8700 is a reply to message #8698]

Wed, 10 January 2018 02:00

C. Hurt
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2013

Gruen Guildsman

I have used a modern epoxy-based product called Ceramit, which cures at low temp and makes a beautiful glossy surface. It works very well for small repairs, but I've never tried it on as large an area, or one with as many edges, as a Carré.

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8703 is a reply to message #8700]

Wed, 10 January 2018 06:37

JackW
Messages: 1931
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
Head Janitor
Site Admin

Is there a Gruen watch catelog that the Carre is featured in? Just the master book? I looked at my copy of the Guild Book, and unless I've missed it, no mention. This includes the 1930 update pages too. It must really be 1931 at the earliest for their introduction? What resources are people using for the letter designation for style?

Edit - Never mind, found it on page 3A of the 9-31 supplement.

index.php?t=getfile&id=3613&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=3613&private=0

A larger/higher resolution image is also attached below.

As to enamel work... I was given supplies for true fired enamel work (with the kiln), but have yet to do anything with it. Other than use the kiln for other jewelry aspects. Think I'd want to experiment on a lot of other things before trying my hand at restoring a watch case. In fact, restoring watch dials with fired enamel is not possible. I think that Cary's mention of Ceramit is the material used by the watch dial restoration service in the UK I once contacted. Sounds like what was described to me as part of their process.

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Attachment: Carre_cat_image_0931_p3A_sm.jpg
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All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Wed, 10 January 2018 17:58]

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Re: Carre B2? [message #8704 is a reply to message #8690]

Wed, 10 January 2018 08:08

Thojil
Messages: 650
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

C. Hurt wrote on Sun, 07 January 2018 23:35

I also have one enameled one at the moment that also has the 315 movement but it's in a larger Swiss case marked "Eclipso" which was some sort of joint venture with LIP. These cases do not have the Wadsworth style case numbers.

The patent was actually held by LIP as you can read in this announcement from Sep. 1931. I have shared some LIP adds of the ECLIPSO in an earlier post here

index.php?t=getfile&id=3611&private=0

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Attachment: Brevet Sep 1931.jpg
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