Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild (10.5 ligne, 15 jewels)
| Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #12084] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 04:08  |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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This caliber appears to have been introduced in 1922, possibly even late 1922. They have pre-1922 tariff markings, but there was a grace period. It’s the only Factory R stamped caliber I’ve seen yet, and the timing would make it one of the later “Factory X” stamps to come into use. But I do find evidence Factory R may have been a Gruen supplier earlier, just didn’t have or use the stamp until 1922. Perhaps a renaming/reorganization—remains to be seen.
These are stamped “640” between plates by the dial screw. All examples I’ve seen are the hunter variant, all marked “641” on the dial back. So they’re stamped for the base 640 open face caliber, the 641 the hunter variant.
Dials are made by Singer SA, all dials bear “107” stamp, which I believe could be Singer’s customer number/reference for Factory R. “107” appears on other much larger Singer dials at this time, too—like the 650. Hope to share an example soon.
Example 1:
Sn (front plate): 11454 (also has a partial “2” stamped to one side)
Markings: 15 jewels, 2 adj. (#s only)
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #12086 is a reply to message #12085] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 12:28  |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Very cool finds, Dan!
Cal. 640/641 is the only one I also have ever seen being Factory R stamped. I share Dan's thoughts that also other movements may have come from this source although they might not have been Factory R stamped.
This movement or at least the ebauche for it was in my opinion manufactured by a Swiss maker starting with "R". So I think that the Factory R riddle may be solved. I know that there will be critics which see differences in the pictures but my personal opinion is that I found a match for the movement, so I try to be careful with my writing.
Have a look into the design registration from December 1922, here are two movements, one being an 8.75 ligne, the other one a 10.5 ligne, number 10520:
To me this is a match. A better picture can be found in an ad from the maker. To disclose the name, it is a company called Russbach-Hänni & Co, located in Court. Founded in 1888 under the name Hänni, later Hänni & Cie, it became Russbach-Hänni & Cie, when Mr. Georges Russbach who married the widow of Arnold Hänni, Marie-Eugenie Hänni, nee Frey (don't they belong all together somehow?), took over the company in 1911.
This ad is from August 1922, so we know that the movement must have been available before the registration already. Russbach also supplied to Alpina before the Alpina-Gruen connection, I have one Alpina watch with a Russbach made movement. But all timings here match perfectly with Dan's observations.
The company went out of business about 1928 and Mr. Georges Russbach-Hänni became member of the board of a pharmaceutical company called Pharmasera.
You may now again start throwing stones on me but this is something I owed some members of this forum.
There is also evidence for another factory ID, this time it is one of the suspects named in the movement document already. I may share my findings as well, don't know if someone is interested.
Barney
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Attachment: R10520.jpg
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Attachment: Russbach.jpg
(Size: 132.88KB, Downloaded 553 times)
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Sun, 02 February 2020 19:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #12088 is a reply to message #12085] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 18:30 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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I must say to you both, Dan & Bernd, absolutely outstanding work.
Thank you both for sharing. I get very excited when fellow members share their finds and this is a really inspiring motivator to keep going on some threads Ive been discouraged by.
Dan, Bernd, Way. To. Go.
Matthias
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| Re: Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #12090 is a reply to message #12088] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 19:53 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Thanks, guys! Was just sharing my conjectures, but to see it in an ad & trademark, to put a name to it...THAT is something.
Goodness gracious, Barney—what a find!! I’ve been closely examining the movement in the ad, and agree it looks a perfect match. Every hole, screw, and bridge is lining up. I’d been looking for a match, have seen close resemblances, but like Jack have always found multiple differences.
The winding setting mechanism is particularly distinct. I had been thinking this started its life as a Felsa ebauche. Mechanism is similar, but this appears to be a unique adaptation. Had been looking at patents for setting mechanisms, as well as movements from period Record and other candidates. Never anything like what’s on the 641, so came up dry.
Echoing all with a congrats & a HUGE thanks for sharing it with us. The family connections make my head spin 
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
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| Re: Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #13395 is a reply to message #13390] |
Mon, 24 August 2020 07:33 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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The differing setting bit looks like a replacement to me, may be the spring was broken like from your second example and the replacement part looks different? Other than that the movement looks the same to me.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 641 (640) - Factory R Gruen Guild [message #13398 is a reply to message #13395] |
Mon, 24 August 2020 13:34 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Could be. There are some differences like the silver vs gilt plate holding balance, but the biggest difference is the finish quality of the main plate, which I can’t really show. Thought it worth capturing.
Btw, I think based on Felsa 71.
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Mon, 24 August 2020 13:39] Report message to a moderator |
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