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Home » The Gruen Model Database » 1950's and Up » Strap 809
Strap 809 [message #8441] Sun, 05 November 2017 16:00 Go to next message
dall-houston is currently offline  dall-houston
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2017
Gruen Apprentice
Model Name: Strap 809
Type: Wristwatch
Period/date: 1950's
Gender: Men's

Case Maker: Gruen USA
Case Material: Guildite
Case Serial: F10468
Case Style Number: 829

Caliber: 415SS
Movement Maker: Gruen Switzerland
Movement Serial: I don't know

Other info: Military Style

index.php?t=getfile&id=3502&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=3503&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=3504&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=3505&private=0

I can find watches from this era with these hour and minute hands, but not this seconds hand. Any info you can provide will be appreciated.

Dall

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[Updated on: Tue, 03 September 2019 18:04] by Moderator

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Re: 1944 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-529 [message #8442 is a reply to message #8441] Sun, 05 November 2017 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
I think that neither hand is original to this watch.
The form of minute and hour hand is OK, but there should not be golden hands to a stainless steel case. And I fully agree with you that the second hand is absolutely unusual to this watch. I have never seen such a second hand on a Gruen watch.
The caliber 415 was introduced 1950, the sweep second version possibly even later. It is impossible that the watch is from 1944, much more likely from 1952 / 1953.
I would say this is (or has originally been ) a Strap 809, which was introduced 1953 and sold under the model name "Sea Worthy". It did cost $49.50 and was to my knowledge at that time the only non automatic sweep second model in Guildite case beside the "Sea Farer" which might have been the same watch with a different band and dial.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2017 18:58]

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Re: 1944 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-529 [message #8443 is a reply to message #8442] Sun, 05 November 2017 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dall-houston is currently offline  dall-houston
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2017
Gruen Apprentice
Thank you for the information!
Re: 1944 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-529 [message #8463 is a reply to message #8443] Thu, 23 November 2017 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Timeticker is currently offline  Timeticker
Messages: 568
Registered: June 2013
Location: Somewhere in the world
Gruen Master
Most of the time these were blue steel hands............methinks!


People you thought were your best friends will stab you in the back to your face!

Love them anyway.
A "Paradoxical Commandment"
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10752 is a reply to message #8463] Wed, 28 August 2019 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
I just purchased the same watch (unfortunately missing the back mounting ring).
The style number needs correction, it is style 829, not 529.
This can also be seen in the picture.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10753 is a reply to message #10752] Wed, 28 August 2019 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Gruen Authority
Almost certainly 1953. During 1953, Gruen stopped putting serial numbers on the movements. This case # is Gruen house line F10468. I've catalogued a 460-825 with Gruen house case # F003569, movement serial # 1L 76242.


BTW, can anyone confirm my suspicion that this is a Swiss-made case? Although unmarked, the printing & layout match the Swiss cases produced for the European market.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10754 is a reply to message #10753] Wed, 28 August 2019 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
Yes, 1953 is what I also anticipated. BTW, my case has serial F73076.
As this watch is listed in the Strap section and not in the Import section of the Master Book as most of the other Guildite cases of that time I would also assume this being really a US made case. The import cases I have seen all said SWITZERLAND inside.
There seem to have been two internal Fxxxxx sequences, one in 1953 and one in 1957/58. Style numbers involved in the second run are from about 966 to (1)035, movements used in my Fxxxxx watches are 215, 215RSS, 220, 415, 422RSS, 550SS.
Are you sure with the F003569 serial? Seems to be one digit too much...

The 1L movements seem to be odd. I own three which are two 460SS and one 462. I would have dated the watches towards about 1950, but if 1L would succeed 1K they would have to be at least from 1955...

And: I do not think that the Import watches were produced for the European market. Gruen did really not actively sell any of these here. It looks like these watcces were imported to the US completely cased for certain reasons.
The watches to be sold in Europe had the Gruen Geneve brand at the dial, this started mid 50s. After 1957 some of these models have also been imported to the US, most famous model is the Airflight or Super-G.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Wed, 28 August 2019 16:39]

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Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10755 is a reply to message #10754] Wed, 28 August 2019 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
Messages: 1308
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Gruen Authority
Barney Green wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 11:32
And: I do not think that the Import watches were produced for the European market. Gruen did really not actively sell any of these here. It looks like these watches were imported to the US completely cased for certain reasons.
I agree, overwhelmingly. But I have seen some early Imports with the German crown hallmark. But these examples may have been related to the Alpina partnership, even though not marked Alpina-Gruen. Some Alpina-Gruen and regular Gruen Import models shared cases, and not all cases used on watches sold as Alpina-Gruen were marked Alpina-Gruen. So, it gets confusing, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Alpina may have distributed at least some watches branded solely as Gruen.

But yes, I agree the Import line's primary function was to import complete watches to the US, not for European distribution.

Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10756 is a reply to message #10754] Wed, 28 August 2019 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Gruen Authority
I'll check & confirm. It's just very strange--only cases made by outside companies were marked "cased & timed... by Gruen Watch Co." True Gruen house-made cases always say "...by the Gruen Watch Co."

BTW, regarding style #s, I think with more data we'll find the style numbers you referenced as 1957 are actually 1953, as well.

For example, I have in my collection a Norwood-made 21J 235 (aka 2351), style pair 235-911, produced 1952-53 (Gruen house case # D471268). Here's a pic of that one. Note the SN is 1 letter + 6 numbers here, and you can see "THE Gruen Watch Co." Maybe this also addresses your question about the previous case # reference being too short, but I'll check anyway.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4927&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10757 is a reply to message #10756] Wed, 28 August 2019 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Gruen Authority
Found the case in question: 460SS-825, case # F003569. Although it follows the Gruen house numbers, it was made for Gruen by Id watch case company.

Based on the closure ring, as well as the interior fonts and lack of "The Gruen Watch" I'd say the above case is also an Id watch case. Perhaps Gruen sourced all their Stainless cases vs. producing them in house.

I also looked back at the Swiss made cases from this time: they follow the same Gruen house number progression, but they put the letter at the end of the 5-6 digits vs. in front (pic at bottom). They also had a different style closure ring.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4928&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4930&private=0


Swiss Guildite case # from this time:
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4931&private=0
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My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10758 is a reply to message #10757] Wed, 28 August 2019 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
The Id-Logo is a nice hint, I do not have this one mine. I have several examples of Id-cases from the later period, but nothing yet that early.
This also explains the two different series starting with "F", this first seems to be the 1953(+) one from ID, the second 1956+ run should be in house.

Not all import cases from Switzerland have a letter at the end, some (early Weber cases I guess) are numbers only. But definitely all later imports from the 50s did have the letter at the end. It is possible that it is a year indicator. I have observed B,D,E and F so far at my Imports. Any other letters from other forum members?
Possibly A=1950, B=1951, C=1952, D=1954, E=1955, F=1956,.... but this is pure speculation. Though it seems to match not too bad...


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10761 is a reply to message #10758] Thu, 29 August 2019 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Barney Green wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 14:49
It is possible that it is a year indicator.
You may well be right that it's a year indicator. I found Gruen-made case # C454xxx engraved with a name & "12/25/1951", so C began sometime in/before 1951. Beyond that...??

Hoping others can shed more light on 50s case letters & dates!


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10766 is a reply to message #10761] Thu, 29 August 2019 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
The C at the start is a different in house series and should not have anything to do with the last letter of the imports.
The Cxxxxxx series coincidentally starts about early 1951 or may be very late 1950 but it definitely lasts until late 1953. So this clearly is not a year indicator but a consecutive prefix which started with B most likely in 1947.
My statement that it could be a year indicator purely relates to the last letter of the import cases.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10768 is a reply to message #10766] Thu, 29 August 2019 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Gruen Authority
Thx for the clarification--was not clear to me which letters you meant

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10769 is a reply to message #10768] Thu, 29 August 2019 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
Sorry for confusion. I put too many things into one post. Here as single statements:
1.) A to F in the end with import cases: probably year indicators.
2.) F in the beginning as designator for ID case factory dating probably 1953+
3.) F in the beginning with in house cases succeeding B,C and D series dating 1956+


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10770 is a reply to message #10769] Thu, 29 August 2019 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Registered: May 2019
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Yes, finally got it, thank you. To your question, then, about additional Swiss letters: here is "G." This time it's in front of the digits -- part of the "fixed" stamp -- on a 365SS case.

Others may have more.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4941&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #10771 is a reply to message #10770] Thu, 29 August 2019 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
Hmm, one of the very last imports, "Import 320". The last one is Import 326 which should be late 1957 or eraly 1958. So "G" could well be 1957. Why in front? Probably because it was aready part of the tooling with the GRUEN logo as one can see. And the serial number was stamped in later during production. Definitely interesting, the first "G" I have seen up to now with an import.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: 1953 Gruen Veri-Thin 415 SS-829 [message #12432 is a reply to message #10754] Wed, 06 May 2020 22:13 Go to previous message
Thojil is currently offline  Thojil
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Gruen Master
Barney Green wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 18:32
And: I do not think that the Import watches were produced for the European market. Gruen did really not actively sell any of these here. It looks like these watcces were imported to the US completely cased for certain reasons.
The watches to be sold in Europe had the Gruen Geneve brand at the dial, this started mid 50s. After 1957 some of these models have also been imported to the US, most famous model is the Airflight or Super-G.
Another way of identifying whether a a watch was destined for the European market is the fact that there is no GXC code on the movement. I have observed that with many of the Gruen Geneva branded models including my own Super-G that I recently posted.

Obviously this is not entirely reliable as many cases don’t have their original movement anymore.

[Updated on: Thu, 07 May 2020 18:18]

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