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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 849 - 6.5L, 16J - Factory L (6.5'" 16J)
Caliber 849 - 6.5L, 16J - Factory L [message #11802] Thu, 05 December 2019 03:11 Go to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Maker: Factory L
Size: 6.5 ligne
Jewel Markings: 16 Jewels
Adj Markings: 4 Adj
Config: Hunter
Dial feet: 12.5 & 6 positions
Dial release mech: side screws
Example date: your guess as good as mine... 1918-1920?

Other markings: front plate--"27" lot code & "42796" (sn), "Depose"; back of dial engraved "45252"; signed "Gruen Watch Co"

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5708&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5706&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5709&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5707&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 18:23]

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Re: Caliber 861 [message #11803 is a reply to message #11802] Thu, 05 December 2019 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
Messages: 2108
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast
Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

Dan,

An unknown Factory L movement. One of Liz's beauties! Shocked

Gary
Re: Caliber 861 [message #11804 is a reply to message #11802] Thu, 05 December 2019 03:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
Gruen Master
Dan,
Here is one of two examples I have with this movement.
Gruen lists this as a caliber 849.
Still have not deduced maker Factory L.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5712&private=0

https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=67 54&&srch=caliber+849#msg_6754

1921 ad -

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5711&private=0

My other one with size comparison to normal cartouche:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5713&private=0


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Thu, 05 December 2019 03:56]

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Re: Caliber 861 [message #11815 is a reply to message #11804] Thu, 05 December 2019 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thanks, Gary & Liz--I knew I'd seen this gorgeous watch earlier, but if I search any numbers on the forum it returns no results. Frustrating! Good to have confirmation it's Factory L. Then again... *sigh*

So my dates for mine were right, pre-1920.

I'd looked at the setting bits for both. Super close, but there seems to be a sight difference between 849 & mine/Liz's. Note the notch on the large piece: ours is more triangular vs. the 849. Note also the opposite end of that piece: there's a slight difference (849 not the same on top & bottom, different taper on the tip). I took that this was a 861, since both ends matched better. I could not find a pic of the actual movement, nor did I make out one below. Did I miss it?

Either way, these two must have been nigh identical: same size, almost same setting bits. Likely both from Factory L.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5721&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 861 [message #11817 is a reply to message #11815] Thu, 05 December 2019 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
Gruen Master
I think these are just different revisions of the same movement.
Now I'm going to have to take the dial off my other one. Darn you Dan!
I also have a couple spare ones that I need to locate.


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Caliber 861 [message #11822 is a reply to message #11817] Fri, 06 December 2019 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oh, man... Sorry, Liz!! But it's just such a beautiful movement--and unknown maker, too, so these fascinate me! I've another, too, so I'll take a look.

Let me also second Gary and say I love your pics. And your watch with this movement is the most exquisite example I've seen. Sadly, my movement here has a gold crown, meaning it was likely once something as beautiful.

BTW, I've also seen a similar movement (perhaps just a later plate style, or whichever variant is the other!) in a 14k man's watch. A pre-quadron Quadron, if you will, similar to the one I believe your 1921 ad shows at bottom right, but case made in 1924-25 and now having a Verithin signed dial/Guild marked movement. I was hoping someone here had it, to see better pics. Haven't seen it yet. Still kicking myself for not being available when it ended.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 849 [message #11901 is a reply to message #11802] Sat, 14 December 2019 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I corrected this thread to say "849". I discovered I also have the sister caliber 861--will post it in a separate thread, comparison below.

The Caliber 849 back plate is shown in the 1926 Guild Supplement B, and it is the one previously identified as 849 on the forum--linear jewels for the train gears vs. a slight offset in the sister caliber. You can see below there is a noticeable difference in the setting mechanism for each, as well as the click, front plate holes, dial feet holes, etc. The train jewels are a clearest identifier on the back plate, since bridge looks could change along the way.

However, the setting bits we see on all our 849s referenced above and on the "849" page in Supplement B--they all match what's labelled as the "861" in the disco'd models of later Gruen material catalogs. It appears there was a mix-up along the way, and the two got swapped.

So which is the true 849?? I'll default to the one that has a clear picture of the actual movement, concurring with the others here. BTW, Liz has shown me this image swap is also carried over from the Gruen material catalogs to the Swartchild catalogs--since the mainsprings are different, I wonder which is the correct specification for which?!

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=5803&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2019 19:14]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #12070 is a reply to message #11901] Sat, 25 January 2020 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Just to confirm, Swartchild does indeed catalog this movement—the one shown as “849” in the 1926 Guild Supplement B—as Gruen caliber 861. You can clearly see the telltale click here on the movement detail, in addition to the setting bits.

Wanted to note this, for anyone following later Swartchild or Gruen catalogs, in search of repair parts. Their 861 parts list should be the correct ones for this movement—and vice versa.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6044&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6043&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Sat, 25 January 2020 02:46]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13010 is a reply to message #12070] Fri, 31 July 2020 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Here’s an oddity: a movement identical to the 849, except fully rectangular (no edge bevels) and an extra case screw near the balance. I thought it might be a first version of the 849, but I note the serial number would be later vs the above, apparently after the Factory L stamp disappeared.

Is this a different caliber? It looks like it would fit a square edge case similar to 115 in Liz’s ad above.


Of note:
-This movement seems to have maintained “Gruen Watch Co” stamp before, during & after the “Factory L” stamps (Cal 861 went to Guild)
-This also suggests fewer than 5k “Factory L” stamped movements may have been produced. Stamp is not there at 42k above, is there at 45k on Liz’s movement that Gary linked then gone at 47k here. Perhaps far fewer, since it’s likely the supplier serial number sequence.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6633&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6634&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6630&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6631&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6632&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:09]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13012 is a reply to message #13010] Fri, 31 July 2020 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
Gruen Master
Oooohhhh....a rectangular one!? That's a first for me.

I'm feeling a strong sense of covetousness right now. Surprised

Did you find that on the bay?


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:43]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13013 is a reply to message #13010] Fri, 31 July 2020 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
Messages: 2108
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast
Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

Dan that one sure is an oddity but boy it sure looks sharp! Like Hewie says...

Don't tell me that I'm crazy
Don't tell me I'm nowhere
Take it from me
It's hip to be square

[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:45]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13014 is a reply to message #13013] Fri, 31 July 2020 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
Gruen Master
My personal favorite: "It's hip to be a square" - Seasame Street

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Fri, 31 July 2020 19:58]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13015 is a reply to message #13014] Sat, 01 August 2020 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Registered: May 2019
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Can you believe it still runs & keeps time? I grabbed it a year ago on the bay, but sad to say I just noted it was different last week. That “Gruen Pritler” (?) dial engraving has me scratching my head. But now all I need is that 18k case I’m dreaming of 😢

Man, the Sesame Street Huey Lewis reference takes me back! I just introduced the kids to Square One TV. I think that show was the reason I never had to study for Math class until I hit Calculus. Steep learning curve on study habits then, tho! Mid term grade was a 7. My classmates called me Touchdown till the end of the term.

Guess I’ll quote Chevy Chase as Gerald Ford: “It was my understanding there would be no math...”


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Sat, 01 August 2020 02:01]

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Re: Caliber 849 [message #13016 is a reply to message #13015] Sat, 01 August 2020 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
OK, time to uncover Factory L.
To make a long story short: It is one of the suspects already named for this position, Landeron. To be precise, at this time the factory was still called Charles Hahn & Cie, based in the small village Landeron. Later, when the company was part of the ESA, it was simply called after the place, Landeron.

Here is why I am sure that "Landeron" is factory L.
The only known factory L marked movement is caliber 849, caliber 861 is very similar and will have the same source. Here comes the design protection for Charles Hahn in 1918, take a closer look at number 124:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6635&private=0

And we can see as #123 the form factor of this remarkable new rectangular version of the cal 849. This new movement is a mixture of 123 and 124...


Barney
  • Attachment: Factory L.jpg
    (Size: 42.71KB, Downloaded 462 times)


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 849 [message #13017 is a reply to message #13016] Sat, 01 August 2020 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
Gruen Master
Awesome find, Barney!


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Caliber 849 [message #13019 is a reply to message #13016] Sat, 01 August 2020 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Congrats, Barney, on another example of excellent research! Landeron it is. It’s hard to say anything about early Gruen with 100% certitude, but these Depose filings make it 100% in my book.

I’d done some looking at Landeron. The sites I found generally state Hahn switched to Landeron in 1925, but I disagree. I can confirm Hahn was already stamping Landeron on at least some movements circa 1920, possibly late teens. Here is one active swamp example with pre-1922 tariff stamps for US import. 133393265453 The dial suggests late teens.

Tangential but related, I have also found that Hahn/Landeron was a member—or at least a source—of SADA. I say that because I sometimes find SADA movements similar to Gruen but can find no info on SADA. Item 303616958737 looks like a left handed variant of 120 above; item 162861925030 has “Landeron” stamped on front plate below 6 position (I had one with a clearer stamp, but it ended).

Anyway—back to the important stuff. Well done, and congrats again!


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 849 [message #13020 is a reply to message #13019] Sat, 01 August 2020 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
Messages: 1832
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands
Gruen Authority
Great find Bernd!

Looks like its about time to update the factories document. 😊

That rectangle movement is just awesome.


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Caliber 849 [message #14485 is a reply to message #13020] Mon, 08 February 2021 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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There is no question that these are a Landeron (Hahn) ebauche, but there may be more to the Factory L story. I offer this only because even up until 1922 Hahn was advertising only ebauches.

But rewind back to 1920: there is another "L" offering a familiar finished movement. Also with the style cases & dials that we see on the early man-sized cartouches, which were mostly all imported Swiss cases... You can even see the little anchor tab that is on my curious rectangle variant.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7789&private=0

Re: Caliber 849 [message #16542 is a reply to message #14485] Fri, 29 April 2022 04:16 Go to previous message
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I looked back at this today, and I noticed “125” is engraved on the back of the dial. See the bridge twin Barney posted above: # 124. Landeron it is.

Why was I looking? Caliber 859, a rare 6L oval movement. 16j. Very similar style & markings to the above.
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