Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments
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| Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12594 is a reply to message #12593] |
Thu, 18 June 2020 13:23   |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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My reply seems to not have made it through. I ought to say that this looked like the 9 3/4 ligne caliber 87. So yes, correct, women's watch probably...
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12634 is a reply to message #12610] |
Fri, 19 June 2020 16:22 |
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afire
Messages: 1312
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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thesnark17 wrote on Thu, 18 June 2020 15:53Which is smaller than 9 3/4. I do have an even smaller Dietrich Gruen movement somewhere around that *must* have come out of a women's watch...
I dunno. I had a rather large men's tank loaded with a little 8 3/4 ligne cal. 823.
A small movement doesn't necessarily mean a small watch. Although I don't have any reason to believe that there were not ladies watches with Dietrich Gruen on the dial.
Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 18 June 2020 16:08Personally I think you could call this a unisex model.
It reminds me a lot of Strap 88, which is unisex, I have one engraved w a man's name and another engraved w a woman's.
I don't think of Strap 88 as unisex. It's in the men's section of the Master Book, which makes it a men's model in my mind. Of course, it's not terribly uncommon to see a men's watch from this era with a ladies' inscription. But that doesn't make it unisex, IMO.
That said, there are examples of men's watches being specifically marketed to both sexes, so I think it would be fair to call them unisex. Strap 16/26 and 17 are examples that comes to mind:
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| Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12727 is a reply to message #12634] |
Sun, 28 June 2020 18:52 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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So going back to that Dietrich Gruen afire linked above. Remember I said it was Piguet setting works?
Here’s a near perfect match Piguet on front plate & works—slightly larger (10L)—but you can clearly see what I mean. eBay item 143643826974.
I understand LeCoultre was finishing Piguet for their top ends at this time (in addition to finishing Tissot et al for lower end, too). I’d say Lecoultre or Piguet was the supplier to Gruen.
Thoughts?
My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
[Updated on: Sun, 28 June 2020 20:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12773 is a reply to message #12771] |
Sun, 05 July 2020 16:28 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Great to see these asside. Really very close and I would also think they are related.
Still both companies had their own design protections.
Here is the Agassiz filing from 1910 which as No. 2 exactly shows the movement you have pictured.
And here is Gruen's 1911 filing for two similar movements, which I think are caliber 47 and 93. Still leaves caliber 89 open, but it is possible and has been usual practice to just protect one base deisgn and slightly vary it over different sizes, so that the cal. 93 protetion may have been also valid for cal. 89.
There are at least 10 other companies having very similar movements during the years around 1910. Some of them were clear copies of the LeCoultre design which have been the first with this style. Some were based on a famous copy from Sonceboz.
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Sun, 05 July 2020 16:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14524 is a reply to message #14523] |
Tue, 16 February 2021 20:10 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Jenneke,
LeCoultre may most likely have just provided the ebauche as caliber 6, not a finished movement. This was the common procedure, that someone provided raw movements, the ebauches, and another company like for example Cattin made complete movements from these ebauches. Other third partries were involved got galvanisation for example so that very often the movements went through several factories before a watch was built from them.
This has been the Swiss way at that time and this is something Gruen wanted to change with the precision factory.
It now makes it often very difficult to find out who did which steps. Sometimes it is a little easier when the factory was acting a little more modern and provided finished movements from ready made ebauches.
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14528 is a reply to message #14524] |
Wed, 17 February 2021 18:30 |
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afire
Messages: 1312
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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Barney Green wrote on Tue, 16 February 2021 14:10
This has been the Swiss way at that time and this is something Gruen wanted to change with the precision factory.
But did they eventually? My naïve blue pill perception previously was that there were two categories of movements - those supplied by other Guild factories and marked with a factory letter, and the Precision grades produced at the Precision Factory. Evidently it was never that simple. Some of what I had previously assumed were entirely in-house movements actually started as outsourced ebauches.*
I also had the impression that around 1935 Gruen basically consolidated all production to be in-house at the Precision factory. Obviously by the 1950s they were clearly outsourcing movements, but was there ever actually a period during which all (or nearly all) Gruen movements were produced start to finish at the Precision factory?
*Which begs the question, what exactly differentiates Guild, Precision, and Extra Precision grades? I had assumed Guild meant outsourced, Precision meant in-house, and Extra Precision meant the highest quality in-house. It would appear that the scale did not have much, if anything, to do with source, but rather simply quality.
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| Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14531 is a reply to message #14528] |
Wed, 17 February 2021 20:03 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Afire,
you are correct that from 1935 to the mid 50s only some specialties were sourced from a few other vendors and the vast majority had been built in house.
The time frame I was referring to, and yes, I did not mention that, has been the state before the precision factory was built. This has been the status quo at that time and there were many exceptions arising. Aegler, Lavina, Marc Favre and some others did many complete designs as most Guild members did. Not all of them were assigned a facory letter, not all of the factories which had a letter were building complete movements from plate stamping to the finished product. There were hundreds of movement factories until the 1920s, some very small like Gruen in the 1870s/80s, some already large factories like FHF Fontainemelon.
At some point of time Precision and Extra Precision grades were built in house. But not before the precision factory was opened. Gruen did not have their own factory at that time! They left their customers under the impression that they had that, but this is not true. St. Imier, Madretsch, these have not been solely Gruen owned factories, all the factory A,D,R,T,V,... whatsoever movements were outsourced for manufacturing. In some cases they have been own designs, but Gruen always partnered with someone for manufacturing and most movements were simply sourced by others. The Guild marking was developed later in time.
The first years of the the Precision Factory it is said that only pocket watch movements have been built there. It took Gruen more than 10 years to move also other products to their own factory.
Just what I learned from closer looking into the "real" sources of many movements which I tried to track down.
This is a rather huge puzzle with thousands of pieces and the third dimension of time makes it even more complicated as some of the movements were acutally moved from one factory to another in time.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14536 is a reply to message #14531] |
Wed, 17 February 2021 22:55 |
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afire
Messages: 1312
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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Barney Green wrote on Wed, 17 February 2021 14:03At some point of time Precision and Extra Precision grades were built in house. But not before the precision factory was opened. Gruen did not have their own factory at that time! They left their customers under the impression that they had that, but this is not true.
...
The first years of the the Precision Factory it is said that only pocket watch movements have been built there. It took Gruen more than 10 years to move also other products to their own factory.
Well, they sure fooled this customer. I really thought that anything with "Precision" on the dial was in-house production by the mid 1920s, while anything that didn't was outsourced in that 1925-1935 timeframe. For example, looking at Quadrons I assumed that the 157 was outsourced (as it definitely was), while the 117-119-123 were made at the Precision factory, and then the 325-3251 was outsourced (at it presumably was). From what I'm getting here, it's likely that none of them were manufactured at the Precision Factory.
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| Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14548 is a reply to message #14545] |
Thu, 18 February 2021 09:10 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1725
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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I fully agree that Quadrons 117-123 are Gruen designs as are V4 to 7 and several other movements.
What I doubt is that Gruen had its own production facility before the Precision factory which was a) Gruen owned and b) only made movements for Gruen. All they had before in Switzerland was an operating unit managing production in one or more foreign owned fabs. This operation unit was managing everything, they even hired their own personal to work in the factories. Plus they sourced many movements which were then marked Gruen Guild, Factory XYZ, United Watch Co., Watch Specialties, you name them...
With the advent of the Precision factory things changed and more and more production went truly in house.
Gruen may have finished the Precision and Extra Precision marked movements in the controlled facilities by their own people, but did they built all these movements from scratch? For sure not, so someone else did this.
As I said at that time movements went from one factory to the other before they were finally assembled into a case to build a watch.
And Jenneke, to answer your question regarding the grade of raw movements: this varied a lot on a) the ebauche maker and b) customer specifications. FHF was able to deliver any grade from a real raw ebauche consisting of probably 10 stamped and partially milled metal parts to a finished and trued movement. Customers decided if the jewel settings, the train, the escapement, the setting bits or whatever was included.
All this makes it extremly complicated to trace back the roots of a movement nowadays. There are hundreds of possibilites and a hundred thousand combinations...
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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