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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments
Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #12590] Thu, 18 June 2020 01:39 Go to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Hey Case, could I get some information (maybe a better picture) of the watch above? I don't have it or any run of women's watches in 147xxx.
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12591 is a reply to message #12590] Thu, 18 June 2020 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Will defer to afire.

But with that layout, isn’t it a man’s movement? Gotta be 13’” or better, surely.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2020 11:08]

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Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12593 is a reply to message #12591] Thu, 18 June 2020 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Okay, wrong twice... I thought you had posted it. Reading too fast.

And also I meant to say "wristwatch" rather than "women's watch". Writing too fast! I have no records of any small sizes in that SN area. (Which really isn't surprising. They turn up only rarely.)
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12594 is a reply to message #12593] Thu, 18 June 2020 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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My reply seems to not have made it through. I ought to say that this looked like the 9 3/4 ligne caliber 87. So yes, correct, women's watch probably...


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12596 is a reply to message #12594] Thu, 18 June 2020 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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If we're talking about the watch I posted, it's an uncatalogued men's Dietrich Gruen wristwatch.
https://mb.nawcc.org/data/attachments/329/329304-1d144a1371708a25a8485cc4225df8ec.jpg
https://mb.nawcc.org/data/attachments/329/329305-1f6c413938cf84b64b37d13b64f51ebc.jpg
https://mb.nawcc.org/data/attachments/329/329308-380609c4b7406bd21b883074262a627e.jpg
Here's a link to where I saw it:
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/help-resurrect-1933-dietrich-gr uen-watch.147900/
If you're a member and logged in, I think you can access larger pictures.
If anybody knows that owner, tell him I want his watch!
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12598 is a reply to message #12596] Thu, 18 June 2020 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Dude, yeah!

Barney—very close. Only 2 off! Cal 89. Hmmm.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12599 is a reply to message #12598] Thu, 18 June 2020 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Size would tell. cal 89 is the 8 3/4 ligne version of the same movement...

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12606 is a reply to message #12599] Thu, 18 June 2020 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Which is smaller than 9 3/4. I do have an even smaller Dietrich Gruen movement somewhere around that *must* have come out of a women's watch, so the DG branding is not limited to men's watches...
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12607 is a reply to message #12596] Thu, 18 June 2020 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Those setting works suggest Piguet. Here’s one of his early works. 124160971205. And one closer age to this 123901784302

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12610 is a reply to message #12606] Thu, 18 June 2020 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Personally I think you could call this a unisex model.

It reminds me a lot of Strap 88, which is unisex, I have one engraved w a man's name and another engraved w a woman's.


Matthias
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12634 is a reply to message #12610] Fri, 19 June 2020 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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thesnark17 wrote on Thu, 18 June 2020 15:53
Which is smaller than 9 3/4. I do have an even smaller Dietrich Gruen movement somewhere around that *must* have come out of a women's watch...
I dunno. I had a rather large men's tank loaded with a little 8 3/4 ligne cal. 823.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Music/Hotlinking/i-nkrLwFK/1/07698fa8/XL/Weber%20with%20Bracelet-XL.jpg
A small movement doesn't necessarily mean a small watch. Although I don't have any reason to believe that there were not ladies watches with Dietrich Gruen on the dial.

Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 18 June 2020 16:08
Personally I think you could call this a unisex model.

It reminds me a lot of Strap 88, which is unisex, I have one engraved w a man's name and another engraved w a woman's.
I don't think of Strap 88 as unisex. It's in the men's section of the Master Book, which makes it a men's model in my mind. Of course, it's not terribly uncommon to see a men's watch from this era with a ladies' inscription. But that doesn't make it unisex, IMO.

That said, there are examples of men's watches being specifically marketed to both sexes, so I think it would be fair to call them unisex. Strap 16/26 and 17 are examples that comes to mind:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Gruen-Guild-Book-7-1929/i-ZNvTNB8/0/acf4f76c/O/page083.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Gruen-Guild-Book-7-1929/i-4zq49Jj/0/95b82211/O/page147.jpg

Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12727 is a reply to message #12634] Sun, 28 June 2020 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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So going back to that Dietrich Gruen afire linked above. Remember I said it was Piguet setting works?

Here’s a near perfect match Piguet on front plate & works—slightly larger (10L)—but you can clearly see what I mean. eBay item 143643826974.

I understand LeCoultre was finishing Piguet for their top ends at this time (in addition to finishing Tissot et al for lower end, too). I’d say Lecoultre or Piguet was the supplier to Gruen.

Thoughts?


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Sun, 28 June 2020 20:06]

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Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12731 is a reply to message #12727] Mon, 29 June 2020 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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I definitely see it too. I looked at the 1926 parts book, and the 87 has that same long clutch lever and other similarities. Cary Hurt, who knows infinitely more than me about these early movements, has said before that he believes that LeCoultre was the supplier of some of Gruen's high end Precision Extra movements.
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12732 is a reply to message #12731] Tue, 30 June 2020 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Yep, I’ve seen the LeCoultre signed repeater posted here, so they’re in the Guild in some way. Perhaps only special orders, but would be great to find a deeper connection. I know others have tried. Piguet would be a win, too, but with Meylan and LeCoultre both verified—and using Piguet ebauches—it’s likely LeCoultre sourced this 89, too. Hope to own one some sweet day!

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12769 is a reply to message #12590] Sat, 04 July 2020 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
C. Hurt is currently offline  C. Hurt
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/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6495&private=0Re: the caliber 89 in afire’s post:

Here is one of mine, unfortunately uncased.

I am of the strong opinion that these, along with 859 and 87 (and likely others) were made by Agassiz.
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12770 is a reply to message #12769] Sun, 05 July 2020 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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You mean something like this? Item # 202915938113

Good stuff, Cary! Bridges look pretty close, maybe a different size? Haven’t found a front plate yet.

Talking of which, wanna add this to the caliber database as it’s own thread?


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12771 is a reply to message #12770] Sun, 05 July 2020 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
C. Hurt is currently offline  C. Hurt
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Here it is next to its Agassiz relative. Bridges are close, screw positions are the same, pinions are the same, and keyless works are near identical.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6496&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6497&private=0
Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12773 is a reply to message #12771] Sun, 05 July 2020 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Great to see these asside. Really very close and I would also think they are related.
Still both companies had their own design protections.

Here is the Agassiz filing from 1910 which as No. 2 exactly shows the movement you have pictured.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6498&private=0

And here is Gruen's 1911 filing for two similar movements, which I think are caliber 47 and 93. Still leaves caliber 89 open, but it is possible and has been usual practice to just protect one base deisgn and slightly vary it over different sizes, so that the cal. 93 protetion may have been also valid for cal. 89.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6499&private=0

There are at least 10 other companies having very similar movements during the years around 1910. Some of them were clear copies of the LeCoultre design which have been the first with this style. Some were based on a famous copy from Sonceboz.

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Sun, 05 July 2020 16:31]

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Re: Caliber 151 - (Extra) Precision - 5 1/2 '" [message #12775 is a reply to message #12773] Mon, 06 July 2020 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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I note that while the setting is very similar and the train elements are in the same places, the holes in the base plate are not the same. Particularly the dial feet holes.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #12947 is a reply to message #12590] Mon, 27 July 2020 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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The 89 is now in its own thread.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14513 is a reply to message #12947] Thu, 11 February 2021 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Coming back to Caliber 89... the makers we've discussed so far are all so close, but there is no match so far.

For me the sticking point is the cutaway around the setting works: in all our proposed sources, it tapers in close to the gears; in the Cal 89 it does not.

I would like to propose a new possible source: Camille Pourrat & Fils (C. Pourrat Fils), out of Geneve. He was also finishing Lecoultre ebauches in fine grades. He was active as a maker and a representative (beside Vacheron & Constantin and Lavina's own Paul Brack) of Swiss watchmaking from 1910 until his death in 1923.

He assumed his father's company (J. Pourrat & Fils), continuing to use its mark: JP & F
http://www.mikrolisk.de/content/horologium.herstellermarken/bildmarke_jpourratfils.jpg

But here is a look at his much earlier pocket watch setting bits (a lever set Lecoultre 6). Apologies for the low res, but it's taken lots of looking to find anything at all.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7825&private=0

Finding his work will be difficult, let alone in a matching size: in the teens & twenties he appears to be making for others vs. branding his own. Hoping others may have better luck.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14522 is a reply to message #14513] Mon, 15 February 2021 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Isnt that picture the same as over here:
https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/my-j-pourrat-fils-movemen t-lecoultre-ebauche.4951255/

So, not a picture from lecoultre 6 but a pourrat&fils movement?

What I dont understand. Why cant cal 89 be just a lecoultre? I am lost 😂


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

[Updated on: Mon, 15 February 2021 22:50]

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Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14523 is a reply to message #14522] Tue, 16 February 2021 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Jenneke wrote on Mon, 15 February 2021 16:49
Why cant cal 89 be just a lecoultre? I am lost 😂
What I've learned from these caliber database discussions is that apparently nothing in the world of Swiss watchmaking simply is what it seems.

https://media.wired.com/photos/5c9ba67d1e34481170ef2bcd/125:94/w_2375,h_1786,c_limit/Culture_Matrix_RedPillBluePill-1047403844.jpg
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14524 is a reply to message #14523] Tue, 16 February 2021 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Jenneke,

LeCoultre may most likely have just provided the ebauche as caliber 6, not a finished movement. This was the common procedure, that someone provided raw movements, the ebauches, and another company like for example Cattin made complete movements from these ebauches. Other third partries were involved got galvanisation for example so that very often the movements went through several factories before a watch was built from them.
This has been the Swiss way at that time and this is something Gruen wanted to change with the precision factory.
It now makes it often very difficult to find out who did which steps. Sometimes it is a little easier when the factory was acting a little more modern and provided finished movements from ready made ebauches.

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14528 is a reply to message #14524] Wed, 17 February 2021 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Barney Green wrote on Tue, 16 February 2021 14:10

This has been the Swiss way at that time and this is something Gruen wanted to change with the precision factory.
But did they eventually? My naïve blue pill perception previously was that there were two categories of movements - those supplied by other Guild factories and marked with a factory letter, and the Precision grades produced at the Precision Factory. Evidently it was never that simple. Some of what I had previously assumed were entirely in-house movements actually started as outsourced ebauches.*

I also had the impression that around 1935 Gruen basically consolidated all production to be in-house at the Precision factory. Obviously by the 1950s they were clearly outsourcing movements, but was there ever actually a period during which all (or nearly all) Gruen movements were produced start to finish at the Precision factory?

*Which begs the question, what exactly differentiates Guild, Precision, and Extra Precision grades? I had assumed Guild meant outsourced, Precision meant in-house, and Extra Precision meant the highest quality in-house. It would appear that the scale did not have much, if anything, to do with source, but rather simply quality.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14531 is a reply to message #14528] Wed, 17 February 2021 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Afire,

you are correct that from 1935 to the mid 50s only some specialties were sourced from a few other vendors and the vast majority had been built in house.
The time frame I was referring to, and yes, I did not mention that, has been the state before the precision factory was built. This has been the status quo at that time and there were many exceptions arising. Aegler, Lavina, Marc Favre and some others did many complete designs as most Guild members did. Not all of them were assigned a facory letter, not all of the factories which had a letter were building complete movements from plate stamping to the finished product. There were hundreds of movement factories until the 1920s, some very small like Gruen in the 1870s/80s, some already large factories like FHF Fontainemelon.
At some point of time Precision and Extra Precision grades were built in house. But not before the precision factory was opened. Gruen did not have their own factory at that time! They left their customers under the impression that they had that, but this is not true. St. Imier, Madretsch, these have not been solely Gruen owned factories, all the factory A,D,R,T,V,... whatsoever movements were outsourced for manufacturing. In some cases they have been own designs, but Gruen always partnered with someone for manufacturing and most movements were simply sourced by others. The Guild marking was developed later in time.
The first years of the the Precision Factory it is said that only pocket watch movements have been built there. It took Gruen more than 10 years to move also other products to their own factory.
Just what I learned from closer looking into the "real" sources of many movements which I tried to track down.
This is a rather huge puzzle with thousands of pieces and the third dimension of time makes it even more complicated as some of the movements were acutally moved from one factory to another in time.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14535 is a reply to message #14531] Wed, 17 February 2021 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Barney Green wrote on Wed, 17 February 2021 21:03
St. Imier, Madretsch, these have not been solely Gruen owned factories.
horror, shock! So, gruen did not make their own movements in the piannostrasse?


Does the setting parts define the ebauche maker and the non-dial side the last supplier? I mean, how raw was a raw ebauche moevemnt?


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14536 is a reply to message #14531] Wed, 17 February 2021 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Barney Green wrote on Wed, 17 February 2021 14:03
At some point of time Precision and Extra Precision grades were built in house. But not before the precision factory was opened. Gruen did not have their own factory at that time! They left their customers under the impression that they had that, but this is not true.
...

The first years of the the Precision Factory it is said that only pocket watch movements have been built there. It took Gruen more than 10 years to move also other products to their own factory.
Well, they sure fooled this customer. I really thought that anything with "Precision" on the dial was in-house production by the mid 1920s, while anything that didn't was outsourced in that 1925-1935 timeframe. For example, looking at Quadrons I assumed that the 157 was outsourced (as it definitely was), while the 117-119-123 were made at the Precision factory, and then the 325-3251 was outsourced (at it presumably was). From what I'm getting here, it's likely that none of them were manufactured at the Precision Factory.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14544 is a reply to message #14536] Thu, 18 February 2021 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I wouldn’t be too scandalized. First, I’m guilty of only posting movements here from the teens to 1922, so mostly before the Precision factory was in play.

My perspective would be, almost anything “Precision” after Precision starts appearing on the lady movements (I think 1922ish) was at least finished in house. There are a few Guild outliers with the odd “Precision” irregularly on movements—I think only from Frey, who was branding “Precision” on his in house movements and a bridge with house markings was used inadvertently.

I think the V1-4 & UV line of pockets was truly in house, Gruen’s specialty to a fault. All brands (even Lecoultre & PP) had to diversify by using ebauches or white labeled movements for at least some sizes, particularly ladies movements & recangles/ovals.

There were always ebauche suppliers in the mix, but the reorganization at the end of 1921 moved us very close to your system:
-Precision finished in house
-A 1-2 year consolidation of the Guild network
-EP calibers gradually replaced by guild & discontinued
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14545 is a reply to message #14544] Thu, 18 February 2021 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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I think the Quadrons 117-123 were also truly in-house, because of the way the serial numbers mesh with the pocket watches.

I am certain that the V4-7 and UV/UV390 were in-house; not actually sure about the earlier versions (V1-3). Regardless, the design is Gruen's.

This has been a great thread to read.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14548 is a reply to message #14545] Thu, 18 February 2021 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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I fully agree that Quadrons 117-123 are Gruen designs as are V4 to 7 and several other movements.
What I doubt is that Gruen had its own production facility before the Precision factory which was a) Gruen owned and b) only made movements for Gruen. All they had before in Switzerland was an operating unit managing production in one or more foreign owned fabs. This operation unit was managing everything, they even hired their own personal to work in the factories. Plus they sourced many movements which were then marked Gruen Guild, Factory XYZ, United Watch Co., Watch Specialties, you name them...
With the advent of the Precision factory things changed and more and more production went truly in house.
Gruen may have finished the Precision and Extra Precision marked movements in the controlled facilities by their own people, but did they built all these movements from scratch? For sure not, so someone else did this.
As I said at that time movements went from one factory to the other before they were finally assembled into a case to build a watch.
And Jenneke, to answer your question regarding the grade of raw movements: this varied a lot on a) the ebauche maker and b) customer specifications. FHF was able to deliver any grade from a real raw ebauche consisting of probably 10 stamped and partially milled metal parts to a finished and trued movement. Customers decided if the jewel settings, the train, the escapement, the setting bits or whatever was included.

All this makes it extremly complicated to trace back the roots of a movement nowadays. There are hundreds of possibilites and a hundred thousand combinations...


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #14553 is a reply to message #14545] Thu, 18 February 2021 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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thesnark17 wrote on Wed, 17 February 2021 23:05
This has been a great thread to read.
100% agreed. I always knew that the pre-1935 Gruen supply chain was a tangled web, but in my childlike mind, a movement simply involved either one or two factories - completely in-house, or an outsourced ebauche finished in-house. I didn't realize that there was much more to it than that.
Re: Caliber 89 (Extra Precision) – 8.75'" 18J, All Adjustments [message #15486 is a reply to message #14553] Tue, 14 September 2021 13:21 Go to previous message
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Mention of Caliber 89 elsewhere cued up some info I gleaned on Agassiz:
-In addition to their US distribution, their production (and Touchon's) appears to have been largely/exclusively controlled by Wittnauer from 1895 until the 1920s. See attached quote from 1913 tariff & 1925 article quote from Miss Wittnauer.
-Agassiz serial number 255733 was stolen in 1917, so their serial number range is not a fit. But Cary now has good benchmarks for dating his: between 1910 deposit & 1913 tariff changes.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8485&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8483&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8484&private=0

[Updated on: Tue, 14 September 2021 13:24]

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