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Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12864] Tue, 14 July 2020 16:45 Go to next message
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Identified via setting bits. Negative setting mechanism. Hunter configuration. Pre-1909 markings (“Adjusted” only). Possibly ca 1907-1908.

Two distinct serial numbers:
Bridges: 137,967
Front Plate: 12,967

Maker/source: unknown
Signed: DG&S Gruen on movement; Gruen Precision on dial

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6550&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6549&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12865 is a reply to message #12864] Tue, 14 July 2020 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Ah, so you got that one! I hope you find it a good home.

That one has the Chronometer Balance and full jewelling. Top quality work from Gruen. Supposedly there is a 15 jewel variant, but I've never seen it. The chronometer balance however comes and goes in this caliber family (known caliber numbers 21, 35, 45, 50, 52 & 56 - anyone know any more?).
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12866 is a reply to message #12865] Wed, 15 July 2020 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Yep, saw it’s big brother go earlier that day, too. Hope it found a good home.

Looking to case this soon. The balance was great—not my usual luck.

These calibers are a mystery to me. Hope others have some answers. Btw, am I even in the ballpark on timeframe here?


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12867 is a reply to message #12866] Wed, 15 July 2020 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Hi Dan,

yes, absolutely correct time frame. Gruen filed for protection of these movements in May 1908, but it is known that movements from this filing have been produced in 1905 already.

Here the picture of the cal. 45 from that filing:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6551&private=0

This is a Madretsch movement and since 1903 Alfred Aeby ran the Gruen Manufacturing Co. in Madretsch. So it is very likely that the Matretsch production came from the Aeby facility. As Aeby left the Gruen Manufacturing Co. in 1909 and Ernest Degoumois in St. Imier took over this movement was produced between 1905 and 1909.

I find the 125k offset of front and back serials very interesting. Could it be that the first Madretsch movement would be serial # 125001?

Barney
  • Attachment: Cal. 45.JPG
    (Size: 24.71KB, Downloaded 338 times)


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 08:37]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12868 is a reply to message #12867] Wed, 15 July 2020 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thanks for the info & date confirmation, Barney.

Very interesting about the sns. 125k would be a good round starting point, and the fact that the last 3 digits of each are the same is a strong point in favor of your theory IMO.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12869 is a reply to message #12868] Wed, 15 July 2020 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quick addendum: I also have a second data point in your favor, Barney. Recall the Cal 52 I posted here?

Bridge sn: 136,328
Front plate sn: 11,328
Difference? 125k (!)


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12870 is a reply to message #12869] Wed, 15 July 2020 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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The first SN is indeed 125001. I have known it for a long time from my SN tables, and thought it was widely known.

I have an average of 7 records in each thousand going back from 129k, and then suddenly at 125k, it ends. Lowest SN observed so far: 125,255 (1903, caliber 35 hunter, 21 jewels, no chronometer balance, no Precision marking). The Precision marking first appears at 128k, by the way, even though there is no change in the quality or type of movement at that SN.

Maybe I should go ahead and analyze the SNs 125-150k.

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:12]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12871 is a reply to message #12870] Wed, 15 July 2020 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I’m usually the last on the bus. When did “Gruen” appear on movement? I’ve a 129k recorded (possibly a 45) with only DGS.

Edit: it would also be helpful if someone could ID the larger version in this lot: 193538174175. It’s sn 126666. I note it does say Gruen, so maybe markings varied on the smaller 45.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 15:48]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12872 is a reply to message #12870] Wed, 15 July 2020 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Interesting. So Madretsch started with 125k, a good point for dating would be the July 1906 inscription on my serial #130504 movement #7 from the same filing. Anyone having an idea which caliber # this would be? Should be 11 or 12 ligne.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6552&private=0

Serial# 128462 has been pictured in an ad dating February 1st, 1905, if I did not misread this one:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6553&private=0

This would be approx. 2000 movements in 1.5 years which would indicate a start in 1902. The Gruen Watch Manufacturing Co. in Madretsch has been registered December 1903 though. Assuming that the movement of #130504 might have been with the jeweler for half a year already, we would be at 2k / year and hit the late 1903 date perfectly with serial # 125001.

Barney
  • Attachment: Cal No 7.JPG
    (Size: 20.76KB, Downloaded 310 times)
  • Attachment: 1905 ad.JPG
    (Size: 15.29KB, Downloaded 316 times)


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 15:44]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12873 is a reply to message #12872] Wed, 15 July 2020 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Re: Case

Markings were usually fewer on the 45. The 126666 watch you reference is the 12s caliber 35 in its typical 17 jewel lower-end guise.

DG&S is the marking at the beginning, Gruen first appears at 126k. Later small (0s cal 45) movements were only marked DG&S until 130k, even as the 12 and 16 size movements were marked DG&S Gruen [Precision after 128k].
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12874 is a reply to message #12873] Wed, 15 July 2020 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Re: Barney

I agree, and your data lines up nicely with my dating. In fact, production did begin before December 1903, as the earliest dated watch I have seen (125, 255k referenced above) dated to June 1903 (and I wish I could have bought it!! I'm extremely concerned that it was melted for scrap).

I do not have the data point of your ad. Could you post the whole thing, or at least enough that I can determine caliber and jewels? Thanks!

I do not know the caliber for Nr. 7, but I have spotted a number of them in the wild.

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:16]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12875 is a reply to message #12874] Wed, 15 July 2020 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Alex, great, yes, I assumed that prodution began earlier than the company was officially registered. This would have been common use.
The serial number from the ad is the one from the 1910s thread, Matt's post:

[url=http://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 43&goto=11907&#msg_11907][/url]

Sorry, can't make the link work as such.

This should be the early (first?) Veri-Thin caliber.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 16:58]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12876 is a reply to message #12875] Wed, 15 July 2020 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Ah, thank you. I did not realize that the serial number was legible in that illustration (and I didn't realize it was a V4 in your snip).

I should note at this point that the LV1 caliber starts at 120,001 and the first V4 that appears in a print ad is 124,463. The one in the ad above (128,462) is validated as part of the first true production run by 128,474 (lowest watch I have seen in the wild) and after that point I have many records.

However, the calibers referenced in this thread to this point are from a different family and therefore (presumably) follow their own rules.

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 19:29]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12877 is a reply to message #12876] Wed, 15 July 2020 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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I popped the front off one of my parts LV1 movements, and found the full SN there (122,xxx). And also in one after the renumbering (329,xxx). Both are marked DEPOSE. For obvious reasons, I would think; yet it isn't marked on the V-series early movements...

This lends credence to the idea that LV-series Verithin movements were built in a different factory than the movement family referenced in this thread. But not the V-series "Precision" line! The V3 movement I just checked (and earliest that I have ever seen) shows a SN of 129k/4k....

Also lends credence to a SN allocation idea: each factory was given blocks of SNs to use, but built out their watches at different rates. I have been de facto following this theory by keeping the movement families separate in my tables (initially because the dates didn't seem to align, later because it was convenient to have movement family groups).

The switch of the LV-series from 129k SNs to 327k SNs would point to this as well: the LV-series was not positioned as "Precision" and was demoted from using the "Precision" SNs.

Maybe I should start some threads for all of the movements under discussion. I have them all...

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 20:42]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12878 is a reply to message #12876] Wed, 15 July 2020 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Hmm, I thought that all 7 movements Gruen filed for designe protection in 1908 would share production and therewith serial number base.
Here are the 7 movements:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6554&private=0

#1 is most likely a 16 size / 19 ligne movement. Caliber 21 / 50 / 52 or 56?
#2 should be 12 size / 17 ligne, I'd say caliber 35
#3 is the movement with serial 124463, correct?
#4 should be 0 size / 13 ligne and caliber 45
#5 is our serial 128462
#6?
#7 is my ladies movement with serial 130504.

BTW these are not the oldest movements Gruen filed for design protection in Switzerland. They were succeeded Apzil 1905 by this one (sorry, very bad print quality):

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6555&private=0


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12879 is a reply to message #12878] Wed, 15 July 2020 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Stupid question: What is the source of LV naming? Never seen outside this forum.

Barney—I think this may be the design in the blurry depose. At least it’s stamped Depose.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6556&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6557&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 20:24]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12880 is a reply to message #12879] Wed, 15 July 2020 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Yes, clearly Barney's 1905 image is the LV1.

But I have no idea where the LV nomenclature comes from. I picked it up from an earlier collector, probably Thojil or Art Bissell.

Fairly sure that 124463 is in fact #5 but will have to check. The image is somewhere in this forum. Edit: yes, it is #5. SN is debatable though, as discussed in the thread. It's even your image! https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=rview&th=12 94&rid=693

#3 is incredibly rare. I've only seen three of them, all with SNs of 132k or higher.

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2020 20:30]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12882 is a reply to message #12880] Wed, 15 July 2020 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Apologies for the plagiarism. My thoughts:

#1 is a 16 size / 19 ligne movement. Caliber 21, 52, 56. There is another 16 size out there that follows #2 in layout.
#2 is a 12 size / 17 ligne movement. Caliber 35
#3 is exceptionally rare, only 3 sightings for me. SN 132k, 134k, 143k. OF and HC.
#4 is a 0 size / 13 ligne movement. Caliber 45
#5 is the V-series, 17 ligne movement. V1, V2, V3, V4
#6 is exceptionally rare, only 3 sightings for me. SN 139k, 140k, 451k
#7 is Barney's ladies movement with serial 130504. SN 128k, 454k seen here (along with possibly dubious sightings in 116/117k)
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12883 is a reply to message #12880] Wed, 15 July 2020 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Good reference to that thread! I also see Thojil footnotes the LV naming—but no reference given.

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #12891 is a reply to message #12883] Thu, 16 July 2020 03:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Going back to the June 1903 engraving (sn 1255xx), wouldn’t it mean production of 125001 likely happened in 1902? Thinking of only 3k per year, plus all the steps between production in Switzerland and a dealer engraving a sold/finished watch in a case in the USA.

Also, would the 1906 ad have to be a V4? Or could it be a V3? Not sure what the differences were back then.

Looking forward to a future dive into the LV1, as I’m seeing some subtle changes to it when the 3xx serial numbers start.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Thu, 16 July 2020 03:21]

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Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #13827 is a reply to message #12882] Fri, 02 October 2020 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Hi. Question. I recently came across a #1. So if Calibre 52 is a 21 jewel, and Calibre 56 is a 17 jewel,.

would that make a 16 jewel #1, Calibre 21?


Matthias
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #17753 is a reply to message #13827] Fri, 25 November 2022 03:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Calibre 21 is a 21 jewel, Adjusted grade. It appears to have been superseded by the Calibre 52 (21 jewel, Adjusted, Precision), but there do not appear to be hard and obvious differences between them, except for the markings.

I don't know of any 16 jewel 16s Gruens. Could you post a picture?
Re: Caliber 45 (17J) - Madretsch Precision - 13’” Hunter Configuration [message #17774 is a reply to message #17753] Sun, 27 November 2022 20:18 Go to previous message
Ephemerald
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thesnark17 wrote on Thu, 24 November 2022 20:40
Calibre 21 is a 21 jewel, Adjusted grade. It appears to have been superseded by the Calibre 52 (21 jewel, Adjusted, Precision), but there do not appear to be hard and obvious differences between them, except for the markings.

I don't know of any 16 jewel 16s Gruens. Could you post a picture?

Lemme get back to ya, in a couple years...nah, just yankin your chain. Laughing Yeah I had worked out calibre 21 wasn't 16 jewel a while back but appreciate the confirmation Snark.



No, I can't post a pic of the movement unfortunately but the existence of a 16s/16 jewel Gruen is certain as it is documented in literature from 1904.


Matthias
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