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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Possible Caliber 60 (21J sister to Cal 35) - Madretsch - 17’” Open Face
Possible Caliber 60 (21J sister to Cal 35) - Madretsch - 17’” Open Face [message #13186] Sun, 09 August 2020 04:05 Go to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Location: Cincinnati
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Asking for help on this one. I can find no match in my sources.

Caliber: ??
Type: Pocket
Layout: open face
Setting: negative/American
Size: measures just over 38mm (17 ligne / 10 Size)
Signature: G. W. Co.
Maker: unknown

Jewels: 21 (#s only)
Adj: “All Positions”
Movement number: 457174 (on bridge; matching dial side sn)
Example date: late 1913-beginning 1914 production
Dial: 2-piece Ceramic, signed “Gruen”
Dial maker: unmarked
Other marks: “Safety Pinion” (center jewel), “Adjusted” (balance cock)
“Madretsch” (main plate by escape)
*not marked Precision*

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6758&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6759&private=0


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Tue, 11 August 2020 01:29]

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Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13187 is a reply to message #13186] Sun, 09 August 2020 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Btw, Barney, I think this is one match for your #2.

https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6554&


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13192 is a reply to message #13187] Sun, 09 August 2020 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
Cool find! This movement appears already in an 1905 ad:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6760&private=0

To my knowledge this is caliber 35.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13195 is a reply to message #13187] Sun, 09 August 2020 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Nothing similar in 1936 La Classification Horlogere.

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13200 is a reply to message #13195] Sun, 09 August 2020 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I’d looked at cal 35. It does look most similar, but I’m showing it was a 12 size / 17.75L, 17J, & hunter?

Interesting to see this one in a 1905 ad.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13210 is a reply to message #13200] Mon, 10 August 2020 00:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
Caliber 35 can also be a 21 jewel OF. I have one. This is another, but it has several unusual characteristics:

- 457k. First non-V-series watch in that range, and first caliber 35 outside of the normal range. I wonder if these watches (atypical production in the early 45xk range) were an attempt to use up unfinished material. The rest of the oddities are probably related to when it was built.
- Marked G. W. Co. and nothing else. First time I've seen it.
- 21 jewels and marked. Surprising that it has 21 jewels in this time frame (the other atypicals are all 15/17 jewels). Other 21j cal 35s are not marked (but are earlier).
- Rare cap jewel style. Caliber 35 uses cap jewels in steel settings except on this movement. Probably was a 17j ebauche. But why convert to 21j?
- No chronometer balance or poised pallet fork. This is not surprising as neither one was used on the other atypical production movements.
- All Positions text, and location. Other atypical movements were 3 positions, or Adjusted only. Usually positions text is next to balance. This is a 21j movement; I guess it's adjusted better.
- Standard swan regulator. Caliber 35 normally uses a different regulator. Unsurprising for such late production.

Hi, everyone. I'm back. It was a nice vacation.

Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13219 is a reply to message #13210] Mon, 10 August 2020 01:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Welcome back, Alex. I was hoping to get your eyes on this one.

My interest in these styles piqued when I saw them still in the 1926 parts book, all now in regular Adjusted sn line, but all with much earlier sn than the rest. Speaks to remnants. Got this in a lucky accident—had no clue until I opened it.

I’m pretty confidant this is a reference for late/end of 1913 production, due to stamps. The model 35 in the 26 book still has words + numbers for jewels/adj. Thats at 456,9xx sn. Here’s 457,1xx with only #s. 1913 tariff, enacted September 30. Helpful, since Gruen soft converted their V4s several years later (in the 470s) Whoever was making these clearly didn’t wait.

I’m still not convinced this is a 35. Different size, different jewel count, AND different orientation? Not buying it.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13220 is a reply to message #13219] Mon, 10 August 2020 01:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Different size? This isn't 12 size?
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13223 is a reply to message #13220] Mon, 10 August 2020 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
You might be doing right not buying the caliber 35 ID: This was just based on the pictures I have access to and it had been the closest match. But there once has been a caliber 60 movement which is listed as sharing parts with caliber 35 (17 ligne). So this could well be the up to now more or less undocumented caliber 60?


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 14:35]

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Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13224 is a reply to message #13223] Mon, 10 August 2020 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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It is a 10 size. I measured twice, to be sure. Very feasible that it at least shares parts with the 35. 60 is a new number for me—would seem to fit the time.

Edit: And now that you mention it, I see 60 in the interchangeability tables as a 17L (10 size) movement. No jewel count listed. May have a match!

Having all seen the recently-sold 7J version of this family (Primo branded, link shared by Liz), it’s clear there are some unknowns/undocumented ones floating out there.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 13:59]

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Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13228 is a reply to message #13224] Mon, 10 August 2020 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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There is a 16 size mystery movement with this layout as well.

Caliber 35 is certainly 12 size, and I know that OF and hunter variants exist (mostly OF).

I have never seen or heard of a 10 size movement in this family. I had no idea any such thing existed. You've got something rare and special there!
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13230 is a reply to message #13228] Mon, 10 August 2020 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Good to find a unicorn Laughing at least it’s running!

60 may be a good hypothesis for now, although I note Mike lists 35 as 17L too in his interchange chart (should be 17 3/4)

I have a lead on possible supplier. We’ll see if it pans out!


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 16:49]

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Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13233 is a reply to message #13230] Mon, 10 August 2020 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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I still couldn't believe this, so I dug around in my parts and turned up a parts caliber 35. Interestingly, it is *both* 17 ligne and 17.75 ligne!

The base movement is 17 ligne... and there's a removable spacer ring around it to bring it up to exactly 12 size (17 3/4 ligne). When I measured my cased caliber 35 to confirm the size (earlier message), that is what I had measured (It fits as a bezel around the outside of the dial). But actually the movement is not so large!

Yours has no spacer ring, but it's just a friction fit, so easily removed/discarded. I think that's enough evidence to say this is indeed a caliber 35, and that it is 17''' for interchange purposes.

So convoluted...

I will take some photos for proof.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2020 18:53]

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Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13235 is a reply to message #13233] Mon, 10 August 2020 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I think it’s conclusive—that the 35 is 17L. Pics would be appreciated, and I’ll put in a shameless plug for a new database entry for it.

The jury is still out on this one. There’s a same-size caliber 60 with unknown specs, and the 35 is known to have differences. The same caliber # for 4 configurations (17 & 21 jewel and hunter & open face) is unlike the Gruen I know.

But I’ll update this thread title to be possible 60 or 21j 35 sister variant.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13242 is a reply to message #13235] Tue, 11 August 2020 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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And I’m officially jealous of your parts drawer, too! Razz

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13249 is a reply to message #13242] Tue, 11 August 2020 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Just noticed this in a 1920s ad from Gary:
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6784&private=0


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13250 is a reply to message #13249] Tue, 11 August 2020 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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I think Alex was saying it was his first time seeing it on movement bc it has been in tons of ads, G. W. Co.


Matthias
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13256 is a reply to message #13250] Wed, 12 August 2020 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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That is correct. But an additional caveat is in order because I'm fairly sure I have seen it on other movements at some point. I was referring only to movements in this movement family. Beyond that, I've also never seen it on any of the movements that I'm tracking. (SN ranges 120k-150k, 327k-347k, 450k-740k, "Main Sequence" or whatever you want to call it, focusing on Precision Factory output.)
Re: Unknown Madretsch OF Caliber — 10 Size/17L — 21J [message #13266 is a reply to message #13256] Thu, 13 August 2020 03:03 Go to previous message
Case is currently offline  Case
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It’s certainly possible. I don’t have nearly the data or research from this early to help solve it. But new info for this timeframe has surfaced even in the past year, so at least this is here as a visual reference. Always hopeful!

And thank you for the info you’ve already shared on this whole family. I’d no idea it was so large.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Thu, 13 August 2020 03:06]

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