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Early Wristlet [message #13484] Thu, 27 August 2020 06:15 Go to next message
Ephemerald
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Model name :Unknown model
Type : Wristlet.
Period/date :. 1913-
Gender : Female.

Case Maker : Unknown maker; JP
Case Material : .935 "Sterling Silver"
Case Serial :
Case Style no :n/a

Caliber : Cal 94. Subseconds variant is Calibre 95. Fifteen (15) Jewels.
Movement Maker : Gruen Guarantee
Movement Serial: n/a

Bracelet : n/a

Other info : Case marked: JP. Sterling silver. .935. Rampant Bear. United. W. Co.
Suisse. Roman numeral I VI on back bezel.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6942&private=0


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6943&private=0.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6947&private=0


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6945&private=0.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6946&private=0.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6948&private=0.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6949&private=0


Matthias

[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 23:14]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #13485 is a reply to message #13484] Thu, 27 August 2020 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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😍

I like that it is different with the 12 β€œwrong” and swing lugs


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13510 is a reply to message #13485] Thu, 27 August 2020 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Thanks! I think it's one of the coolest watches in my collection. It is also one of the hardest to capture on camera and I am never satisfied with the results. The dial glows gold and shifts in colour.

No known ads of this one... I was wondering about opinions on the crown...it is a replacement right? Original? I'm not sure I have seen one exactly like it but, again, I do not know.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6955&private=0



Matthias

[Updated on: Thu, 27 August 2020 21:50]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #13511 is a reply to message #13510] Thu, 27 August 2020 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Your watch is on the pixelp website...
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6956&private=0


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13512 is a reply to message #13511] Thu, 27 August 2020 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GaryM
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Cheerleader

Whoa and coincidence or from Paul Schliesser's estate?
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13514 is a reply to message #13510] Fri, 28 August 2020 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 16:48
I was wondering about opinions on the crown...it is a replacement right? Original? I'm not sure I have seen one exactly like it but, again, I do not know.
It sure looks right to me. 100+ years later and before some higher level of standardization, to have a silver crown appropriate for the time is about as good as it gets. It's silver, it's the shape of the time. If not original, then it's an appropriate replacement.
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13515 is a reply to message #13514] Fri, 28 August 2020 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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afire wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 21:11
Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 16:48
I was wondering about opinions on the crown...it is a replacement right? Original? I'm not sure I have seen one exactly like it but, again, I do not know.
It sure looks right to me. 100+ years later and before some higher level of standardization, to have a silver crown appropriate for the time is about as good as it gets. It's silver, it's the shape of the time. If not original, then it's an appropriate replacement.
Ok. Thanks for the feedback.

Jenneke, yes, that's it, I was aware of the watch being featured on his website, I recognized the watch when it came up for sale.

Gary- I don't think Paul owned the watch... but I don't it's history....It was a U.S. based sale.


Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13519 is a reply to message #13515] Fri, 28 August 2020 05:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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That’s a sweet watch, Matt

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13529 is a reply to message #13484] Fri, 28 August 2020 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 01:15
Gender : Female.
Paul identified is as a men's watch. The lugs and overall styling are consistent with what you might see on an early men's wristwatch. 29mm doesn't seem too small to be a men's watch. Are you thinking too early to be men's? Or in person, just too small?
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13531 is a reply to message #13529] Fri, 28 August 2020 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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afire wrote on Fri, 28 August 2020 10:53
Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 27 August 2020 01:15
Gender : Female.
Paul identified is as a men's watch. The lugs and overall styling are consistent with what you might see on an early men's wristwatch. 29mm doesn't seem too small to be a men's watch. Are you thinking too early to be men's? Or in person, just too small?

Yes, I thought the same thing when I purchased it John. but I now believe it is a wristlet though may be not 100%. Hopefully they will chime in w their knowledge because I don't want to speak for them but Bernd convinced me enough that I think it likely is a females watch just based on the movement.
It is an interesting subject to ponder though. Mostly, I'm on a mission for the maker.

Here it is next to Calibre 47 men's watch advertised in 1915. To me, it is significantly smaller.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6972&private=0





Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #13552 is a reply to message #13531] Sun, 30 August 2020 04:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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I don't know. It certainly could go either way, but the overall vibe is mannish (to use a period Gruen term) to my eye.
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17925 is a reply to message #13552] Thu, 29 December 2022 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
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I'm with John...definitely a mens vibe & the early ladies' models were smaller.

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17926 is a reply to message #17925] Thu, 29 December 2022 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 17:15
I'm with John...definitely a mens vibe & the early ladies' models were smaller.
That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially on other people's watches. πŸ˜‰ I have a for sure ladies wrislet from about this year that is this size w/ this movement.
Anyway, I do not believe watch identification for gender is subjective in this period but is based on a few key criteria.
According to research by David Boettcher, this is very, very likely a ladies wristlet.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/trenchwatches.php#manslad ies


Matthias

[Updated on: Thu, 29 December 2022 01:31]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #17927 is a reply to message #17926] Thu, 29 December 2022 02:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
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I just think this model evokes more of a feminine vibe of the day:

https://www.vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 291&goto=1185&#msg_1185;

I've also never seen that particular movement in a ladies model.


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17928 is a reply to message #17927] Thu, 29 December 2022 05:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 19:18
I just think this model evokes more of a feminine vibe of the day:

https://www.vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 291&goto=1185&#msg_1185;

I've also never seen that particular movement in a ladies model.
Yes, that particular model does have a more feminine vibe. Not sure how that applies to my model.

David says "there is also a long history of women wearing military looking items during times of war".
You can point to any decade of Gruen wristlets and I'll show you mostly very "lady" like examples...but also some very obvious "manly" like models, meant for women. Gruen always had diversity in its lines.

At 11 ligne cal 94 is def an "in between" calibre but I have now seen this calibre in *numerous*, clearly ladies models.









Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17930 is a reply to message #17928] Thu, 29 December 2022 05:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
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My bad, I was confusing your movement with another one I was looking at. I also have several models with this same movement. I still would not classify yours as a ladies model.

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17932 is a reply to message #17930] Thu, 29 December 2022 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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timeliz wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 22:34
My bad, I was confusing your movement with another one I was looking at. I also have several models with this same movement. I still would not classify yours as a ladies model.

Again, that is fine, classify it however you'd like.

Of course, the real challenge would be finding this calibre in a model that is clearly for men. (Besides mine)


Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17934 is a reply to message #17932] Thu, 29 December 2022 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Sorry if the gender speculation is getting tiresome, but one more point. The hinged lugs seem masculine to me. Every 1910s ad we have in the reference thread shows all wristlets with either a ribbon strap on wire lugs or a narrow metal bracelet attached to small tabs. Granted, I don't think there are any men's models shown with hinged lugs either, but we know that they were a fairly common feature on men's watches at the time. I don't recall seeing them often, if ever, on a watch that was clearly meant for ladies.
https://i0.wp.com/www.antiquesage.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Trench-Watch-Advertisement-2-Final.jpg?resize=768%2C994&ssl=1
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17944 is a reply to message #17926] Fri, 30 December 2022 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Ephemerald wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 18:01
That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially on other people's watches. πŸ˜‰
What else is there to do than to opine on other people's watches?

Also.... I doubt that a Gruen watch would originally be cased in one stamped "United W Co."
https://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Rubi n-Casselhoff&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker

Unless I'm missing something? Maybe Gruen was supplying movements to United W Co? Are there other examples?


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17945 is a reply to message #17944] Fri, 30 December 2022 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Yes, you are missing something.

Wrong United Watch Co.


Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17947 is a reply to message #17944] Fri, 30 December 2022 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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JackW wrote on Thu, 29 December 2022 17:14
Ephemerald wrote on Wed, 28 December 2022 18:01
That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially on other people's watches. πŸ˜‰
What else is there to do than to opine on other people's watches?

Also.... I doubt that a Gruen watch would originally be cased in one stamped "United W Co."
https://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Rubi n-Casselhoff&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker

Unless I'm missing something? Maybe Gruen was supplying movements to United W Co? Are there other examples?
Again,πŸ˜‰

Heres a bit of Gruen history to get you up to date.
United Watch Co (United, United Watches, United W.Co, Unity,etc) is a well documented, longtime known daughter company of Gruen Manufacturing. It was founded December 9th, 1910 in Madretsch. Run by Eduard Gasser.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10306&private=0




Matthias
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17951 is a reply to message #17947] Fri, 30 December 2022 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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> It was founded December 9th, 1910 in Madretsch. Run by Eduard Gasser.

And merged with the Gruen Watch Manfucturing Co late 1914 / early 1915. The decision was made at the general meeting June 30th, 1914. March 13th, 1915 the company was officially dissolved and merged.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17952 is a reply to message #17947] Fri, 30 December 2022 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 29 December 2022 18:09

Heres a bit of Gruen history to get you up to date.
United Watch Co (United, United Watches, United W.Co, Unity,etc) is a well documented, longtime known daughter company of Gruen Manufacturing. It was founded December 9th, 1910 in Madretsch. Run by Eduard Gasser.
That is interesting. Thank you for bringing me up speed.

The 1915 date that Barney has for the merger with the parentship is interesting too for wrist watches. I'll stay out of the debate on men's vs woman's on the model.


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17955 is a reply to message #17926] Sat, 31 December 2022 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Ephemerald wrote on Thu, 29 December 2022 02:01

According to research by David Boettcher, this is very, very likely a ladies wristlet.
Thanx. Interesting read! Following his rules, it would be a ladies watch.

Is it possible that it is a converted ladies pocket watch? My niello example with the same movement:
https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th=1859 &goto=12931&#msg_12931

What makes me doubt is the fact that is has subseconds. Thought that wasnt very common for ladies to have on a watch. But hey, my pw has it too and do not think that this model was suitable for men in those days.

Finding the same with an inscription seems to be impossible. Whatever it is, my conclusion is that ladies had more design and size options than men. Then and now. πŸ˜€


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17957 is a reply to message #17955] Sat, 31 December 2022 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Jenneke, it is not possible it is a converted pocket watch.
Calibre 94 was not only used in ladies pocket watches but also used in wrist watches. That is simply a fact. I have physical evidence of that in my collection, plus numerous examples of it in photo evidence.

I don't mind speculation on gender but there is no doubt about this watches originality and authenticity.

Speculation resonates with me most when it is accompanied with something tangible. Something to at least point to. Speculation that stems from a feeling or vibration has little meaning to me.

That's why I found afires ad so interesting. Never seen that one before.

I am open to the possibility that this could potentially be a mans watch, as I have been from the beginning, none of this has been proven, but the evidence has me leaning towards a woman's watch is all. πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

PS, subseconds has never defined gender. Hinged loop ends seem to be more common on ladies wristwatches and so far only seen this calibre in ladies Gruen watches.


Matthias

[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2022 23:53]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #17962 is a reply to message #17957] Sun, 01 January 2023 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Matt,

I am with you and I have no doubt that the watch has to be classified as a ladies watch. The watch with attached band will once have had looked like this:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10309&private=0

And here the proof that some of the early ladies watches had this odd orientation and sub seconds:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10310&private=0

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 10:11]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #17963 is a reply to message #17962] Sun, 01 January 2023 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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1912, one of the very first wristlet ads:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10311&private=0

Smaller lugs, but exactly the style and type of watch.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17966 is a reply to message #17963] Sun, 01 January 2023 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Probably also worth mentioning that to my knowledge the first man's Gruen wrist watches were advertised in April 1915, which would indicate that there should not be any "United" trench watches for gents.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17968 is a reply to message #17966] Sun, 01 January 2023 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Barney Green wrote on Sun , 01 January 2023 17:03
Probably also worth mentioning that to my knowledge the first man's Gruen wrist watches were advertised in April 1915, which would indicate that there should not be any "United" trench watches for gents.
Nice reasoning.

Quote:
Jenneke, it is not possible it is a converted pocket watch.
I was considering the conversion because of the hinge and position of the 12, not bc of the movement. But no doubt you can judge it better because you have this nice early wrist watch. Smile And the plain back is making is a tell tail sign which I didnt notice before.


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 16:39]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #17970 is a reply to message #17968] Sun, 01 January 2023 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Jenneke, it def is worth considering but I eliminated it a long time ago.

Bernd. Thanks alot for these Gruen ads. It shows that not only some early wristlets have subseconds but first ad shows that some ladies models seem to be almost strictly utilitarian. Though I still see the beauty in their simplicity.

I need to make a correction. This variant of movement with the subseconds is calibre 95.




Matthias

[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2023 23:42]

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Re: Early Wristlet [message #17971 is a reply to message #17970] Mon, 02 January 2023 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Barney's images can also be used to suggest that the lugs were altered from a fixed hinged band to a hinged loop to accommodate a ribbon. Not saying that is the case, but another possibility for the life of the watch. More than enough examples of altered lug styles on watches completed in the period to back this up as a hypothesis.

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Early Wristlet [message #17972 is a reply to message #17971] Mon, 02 January 2023 00:34 Go to previous message
Ephemerald
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JackW wrote on Sun, 01 January 2023 17:13
Barney's images can also be used to suggest that the lugs were altered from a fixed hinged band to a hinged loop to accommodate a ribbon. Not saying that is the case, but another possibility for the life of the watch. More than enough examples of altered lug styles on watches completed in the period to back this up as a hypothesis.
Ok. Point taken. I agree that it seems it can be used to fit a narrative. I see that a lot.


My take is, not really, while Barney's ads do show the similarities..... the ads are not showing any images of my exact model but with different lugs on it.

There are multiple obvious differences between my model and the models in his examples, and in fact, in any known examples in any known Gruen ads.

So it is not quite as framed, "hey, there's the exact watch! but with different lugs...hmmm"

Theory does not add up, but totally my opinion, bc if the existence of altered lugs on watches puts every unknown model, with absolutely no signs of alteration whatsoever, into question...oh my.

It is a rare watch.
In a loupe it looks factory. As it does without one, actually Laughing Clearly it matches.
Personally, other than gender, I think Paul nailed it and at least, accurately understood it was Gruen.


/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10313&private=0


I also think, it's possible an documentation pops up some day that confirms the gender, either way.



Matthias

[Updated on: Mon, 02 January 2023 02:55]

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