Vintage Gruen: The caliber database » Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision

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Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13564]

Mon, 31 August 2020 13:24

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Classified “Extra Precision” in my 1926 parts catalogue, although not stamped with the diamond. Have yet to encounter the top-winding 841, which I presume is in necklace models. Showing a bridge side pic from my original copy of 26 parts catalogue.

Dims: 5.5 x 10 ligne
Dial mounts: 2 dial side screws
Front plate marks: sn & “A 32”
Dial maker: unsigned (illegible stamp, possible import or American Art Enamelers)
Dial markings: no “Switzerland”; has 2 serial #s etched in back: “179928” (matches movement) & “1023408”

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7000&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7000&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6996&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6997&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6998&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6999&private=0

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[Updated on: Mon, 31 August 2020 13:25]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13565 is a reply to message #13564]

Mon, 31 August 2020 13:29

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

I believe this is Favre’s contribution to the Extra Precision family, this example ca. 1920-21.

This appears to be the higher-end precursor to the 151, which was necked down to 5.25L and has an evolved setting mechanism. They share a common setting spring, likely other parts.

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13566 is a reply to message #13565]

Mon, 31 August 2020 16:12

Gary
Messages: 2114
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast

Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

That font on the barrel bridge matches close to Jenneke's 839. Could the finisher of this ebauche be Paul Ditisheim?

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13567 is a reply to message #13565]

Mon, 31 August 2020 17:01

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

I am fully with Dan, this should be a precursor of the Favre 151. Based on the same design #14, please note that Favre mentioned "different sizes" with the one picture. Some things always change with the sizing, so the two movements may have been developed even same time.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7001&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7001&private=0

Attachment: Favre 14 cal 151.jpg
(Size: 22.25KB, Downloaded 1041 times)

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Mon, 31 August 2020 17:02]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13568 is a reply to message #13567]

Mon, 31 August 2020 17:38

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Imo, similar bridge fonts, dial side sn font, etc. would suggest Favre could’ve supplied both Gruen & PD.

I think we’ll find cals 839-845 were the “EP” block assigned to Favre. 839, 840, 841 we’ve seen; Marc Favre’s Siva movement I shared on the 839 thread is indeed a match for the Gruen 843, as Jenneke said; and I understand the 845 is a 6L version of the 841 (haven’t been able to verify this)

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13602 is a reply to message #13568]

Tue, 01 September 2020 13:57

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Then again, I may be wrong... there was another firm (one of a few) supplying P Ditisheim, and take a look at this!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353155146964

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13605 is a reply to message #13602]

Tue, 01 September 2020 16:48

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

It is much more likely that Favre is the common source and supplied to all of them...
With the sales figures of V&C, Ditisheim, Gruen and possibly others it did not make sense for any single company to develop a movement of this kind. With Favre supplying to all of them the combined figures justified the developement and tooling of a movement like this. This is why this system is so complicated to review after 100 years.Who supplied what to whom in which level of finishing.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13607 is a reply to message #13605]

Tue, 01 September 2020 18:05

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

For sure! Hard to tell the story from just looking at movements.

Favre had a much bigger game than I thought, if he was in with V&C, too. These calibers do seem to be of rarer use by all, augmenting the regular caliber lineup. It’s possible he was also using an ebauche (meylan or someone) until he could tool up/scale up for a full in house movement (the 151). That would explain a later timing for the 151 & its depose, as well as that strange mark on the 839.

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #13608 is a reply to message #13607]

Tue, 01 September 2020 18:21

Gary
Messages: 2114
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast

Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

Case wrote on Tue, 01 September 2020 18:05

Favre had a much bigger game than I thought, if he was in with V&C, too.

From a guild history perspective that would make sense. Favre did get swallowed up into the SSIH conglomerate unlike many other finishers that went belly up. Does bode to show how eabuches were assimilated into the larger unions in the Swiss evolution.

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14727 is a reply to message #13608]

Fri, 09 April 2021 17:25

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

An interesting ad from October 1917, the earliest I've seen. No less a house than Alexandre Huning claims to be the true manufacturer of this movement.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8001&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8001&private=0

Attachment: A Huning 841.png
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[Updated on: Fri, 09 April 2021 17:25]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14728 is a reply to message #14727]

Fri, 09 April 2021 17:37

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Just looking more into this potential lead...

Here is Huning's version of the Gruen 845, I think. Curiously, it appears to be stamped "45" on the front plate, near the serial number.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8003&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8003&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8004&private=0

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[Updated on: Fri, 09 April 2021 23:35]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14731 is a reply to message #14728]

Fri, 09 April 2021 23:35

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Re-added images

And cross linking to Gary’s 845 timely setting works, for quick comparison. Nailed it.

https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8002&

[Updated on: Fri, 09 April 2021 23:42]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14734 is a reply to message #14731]

Sat, 10 April 2021 10:02

Jenneke
Messages: 1904
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands

Gruen Authority

Good quest! The alterations: Balance wheel shifted, bigger cut corners. Bridge changes?

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14739 is a reply to message #14728]

Sat, 10 April 2021 17:11

Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt

Gruen Authority

Case wrote on Fri, 09 April 2021 11:37

Just looking more into this potential lead...

Here is Huning's version of the Gruen 845, I think. Curiously, it appears to be stamped "45" on the front plate, near the serial number.

.

Gruen 845, sn 170251.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8011&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8011&private=0

Attachment: 20210410_101730.jpg
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Matthias

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14745 is a reply to message #14739]

Mon, 12 April 2021 15:40

afire
Messages: 1331
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Sure looks like a match to me.

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14749 is a reply to message #14745]

Tue, 13 April 2021 02:22

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

I’d never actually seen the Gruen version. Thanks, Matthias! That original pic shows so much detail. For sure it’s the same caliber & same setting bits (that’s huge). But I think Matt is subtly pointing out the serial number scheme variance. Not having a Gruen to see the front plate, I guess we’ll have to wait & see if there’s a second serial number on the dial side like on Cary’s oval.

Bernd showed Cattin’s twin to this 845: I now can see both Cattin’s and Huning’s lack the case screws seen on the Gruen, and there are a couple of holes that are missing or extra.

I’m guessing the 841 & this 845 could both be top grade LeCoultre ebauches, and we’re looking for a finisher. But boy it’s fun seeing the storied brands where they are showing up! And a setting bits match lends hope to a 100 year old mystery.

I just hope others find it interesting.

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14764 is a reply to message #14727]

Wed, 14 April 2021 16:03

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

Careful, Dan, Huning does not claim to be the manufacturer of this movement which he for sure was not.
All he claims to be is a manufacturer of high class watches which on the other hand he for sure was.
This is how marketing still works nowadays and did work at that time already.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Wed, 14 April 2021 18:38]

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14768 is a reply to message #14764]

Wed, 14 April 2021 17:52

Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati

Gruen Authority

Those marketers! 😁

Having a little fun. I’m myself not sure who made what, so just pulling threads for now.

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Re: Cal 840 (841) - 5.5’” 18J Extra Precision [message #14770 is a reply to message #14768]

Wed, 14 April 2021 18:39

Barney Green
Messages: 1747
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany

Gruen Authority

Yes, and I am with you, I would not wonder if the real source were Le Coultre.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

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