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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision)
Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #13986] Sat, 28 November 2020 02:53 Go to next message
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Here’s a movement I don’t recall seeing before. Listing reports ~17.5mm, which would be 7 3/4 ligne. Lever set. Only seller pics for now.

Anyone familiar with this one? The font & sn suggest Meylan, while the center bridge seems an Agassiz style.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7313&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7314&private=0
Re: Swamp finds... [message #13990 is a reply to message #13986] Sat, 28 November 2020 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Don't know but the barrel screams St Imier.

What a hideous looking dial?
Re: Swamp finds... [message #13993 is a reply to message #13990] Sat, 28 November 2020 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Yeah—exactly my thoughts. Will be curious to see dial back. Also looks like some text on front plate. Guessing ca1909-10?

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Swamp finds... [message #13998 is a reply to message #13993] Sat, 28 November 2020 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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If you would agree that this should be the movement you are both wrong:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7319&private=0

The picture is from 1913...
  • Attachment: LC1913.jpg
    (Size: 4.83KB, Downloaded 758 times)


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #13999 is a reply to message #13998] Sat, 28 November 2020 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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We were just taking stabs in the dark Barney, I bet there is a Lecoutre stamp hidden under those bridges. Lever set most likely a ladies hunter?
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14000 is a reply to message #13999] Sat, 28 November 2020 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Not Lecoultre either. The manufacturer is from La Chaux De Fonds...
I also thought it were Lecoultre on the first sight.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14001 is a reply to message #14000] Sat, 28 November 2020 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Strike 2 Laughing I believe that's a new one for a Gruen movement guild and our movement factory guide.
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14002 is a reply to message #14001] Sat, 28 November 2020 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Yes, absolutely. First time I see them as a supplier to Gruen: Louis Cattin.
The company was founded in 1910, Louis came from Bienne...
Really not much known about this company.

But he was specialised in smaller movements mainly for the US:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7320&private=0


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14005 is a reply to message #14002] Sat, 28 November 2020 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Now this becomes absolute stunning!
Digging deeper into this company it looks like they were also the supplier for some other Gruen movements. Caliber 87, 93 and 103 at least have had variants sold by Cattin. And I fear there is more to be discovered...


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14006 is a reply to message #14005] Sun, 29 November 2020 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Fascinating! Just poking but the guilds did mingle, Lecoutre/Cattin . I'll have to check out the Prichard's Swiss Watchmakers set again.
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14009 is a reply to message #14005] Sun, 29 November 2020 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Exciting to see a new contender emerge! Hope to get full pics this coming week.

So it sounds like this is a new movement to others, too. Is there a possible caliber # known in this size range? A forlorn hope, but wanted to ask
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14012 is a reply to message #14009] Sun, 29 November 2020 08:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Gary, this is not the correct Louis Cattin, ours is Louis-Justin Cattin.
Need some time to dig deeper into this, just found out about Cattin yesterday when searching for the movement. And surprisingly I found a good number of other very similar to Gruen movements of that time as mentioned before.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14015 is a reply to message #14012] Sun, 29 November 2020 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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This Louis Cattin seems a relatively unresearched entity. I can find one entry on mikrolisk, and the only eBay items from the period seem to be Cattin-Aubry, which I take is a different Cattin. All schilds, so no help there.

Curious that Louis Cattin shares “CAT” mark with Cattin & Cie, which also owned “Caravelle” as late as 1960. Not sure if that’s a coincidence or a relation & possible shared source with Bulova. I’m waaay out over my skis here. Anyway, look forward to hearing more of what you find.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14059 is a reply to message #14015] Sun, 06 December 2020 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Deleting duplicate post

[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2020 04:48]

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Re: Swamp finds... [message #14060 is a reply to message #14015] Sun, 06 December 2020 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Well, this arrived today, and it turns out to be exactly what I’d hoped. First, though, what it’s not: it is not lever set, and it’s not 7 3/4 L. I measure just over 8 L, and what I mistook to be a lever is an appendage to anchor it in the case. Apologies for not knowing the correct term. The dial back is blank—no help there.


On to what it is: I believe it’s a little old cousin to the Cal 89. I thought as much when I saw the stud carrier in the listing (note one screw is detached, so it’s rotated 180deg from correct), but take a look at the setting works.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7371&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7370&private=0

Giving you a perspective of its amazingly small size—I just find it fascinating!
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7372&private=0

[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2020 04:50]

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Re: Swamp finds... [message #14061 is a reply to message #14060] Sun, 06 December 2020 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Dan,

A shot in the dark, Swartchild lists the bits of a 857 cal 7.75 ligne movement. The bits fit pretty close and also in comparison to the 89 cousin you mention. Also the green book references the 857 as an 18 jewel.

Some more to ponder. I can try to get a better scan, my scanner seems a little off. Cheers!

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7373&private=0
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14062 is a reply to message #14060] Sun, 06 December 2020 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Cool, good to see that you got this nice movement.

I would not have a caliber number for it, but the fact that it is 8 Ligne is supporting the Louis Cattin source ID.

Louis Justin Cattin was born October, 31st, 1865 in Les Bois near Bienne. Most likely his father was called Louis Cattin as well, there is a "Remonteur" of this name in Les Bois listed for the 1870s. Looks like Louis Justin learned the profession from his father but he must have moved to La Chaux-de-Fonds before 1892, most likely for making his own living there. In 1892 he married Amélie Fatton, a regleuse, probably a colleague, in La-Chaux-De-Fonds.
It looks like they did not have a friendly relationship to other Cattins all the time. There were quite some others in the watch industry as you already found out. But in death notices from the time they never were mentioned.
They moved a couple of times between 1898 and 1903, probably due to the birth of children. They finally settled in Rue de la Tourelles 45 in 1903.
Louis started as Remonteur but from 1902 onwards he was called "horloger", watchmaker.
1906 seems to have been the big year for Louis Cattin, he hired at least 20 people to assemble watches and movements, so this should be the birth year of his business. But it took four more years until 1910 Louis Cattin registered the company under his name.
From 1913 to 1926 he was listed under "Fabricants d'horlogerie" in the La Chaux-de Fonds address book.
In this year 1913 we can find the first pictured advertisement showing five ladies / wrist watch movements sizes 8 to 10.5 ligne. And yes, the 8 ligne movement is our mistery Gruen movement.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7375&private=0


Also in 1913 the first protection of a movement was made.
Later in 1916 and 1918 the already shown advertisement was placed, saying that the would produce 7 ligne to 13 ligne movements and movements for America.

1920 another pictured advertisement showing two registered movements (marked with Depose) and big surprise, we can identify two other Gruen movements: caliber 103, another 8 ligne Gruen movement and voila, caliber 845, an early 6 ligne Cartouche movement.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7374&private=0

The last advertisement I found was from 1924, now stating that they go down to 4 ligne in different form factors and the specialty is still movements for America.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7376&private=0

In June 1926 he died in the age of 61 and his wife took over the business which was called "Veuve de Louis Cattin" starting February 1927. But already in November 1927 the company was erased from the company register due to renunciation by Amelie Cattin-Fatton.

In 1934 the house and all the belongings were sold by the children of the Cattins, Paul-Emile Cattin, Henri Cattin and Marthe-Lina Vittori-Cattin, most likely Amelie died shortly before.


This is a short Louis Cattin biography showing 10 movements, but there must have been more. HOw many were sold to Gruen?

Barney



Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2020 18:30]

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Re: Swamp finds... [message #14063 is a reply to message #14062] Sun, 06 December 2020 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
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Looks very similar to this model:

https:// www.vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=6563&a mp;&srch=cal+87#msg_6563


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14065 is a reply to message #14063] Sun, 06 December 2020 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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I think we are coming close to something. Gary, this is a cool find! cal 857 is a 7 3/4 ligne movement but the 1921 catalog shows a different layout.
845 appears to be from Cattin. There is reference to a caliber 843 being 8 ligne without a picture. Would that be our mistery movement?

And Liz, yes, correct also cal 87 has quite some similarities to these movements as I mentioned last Sunday already.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14066 is a reply to message #14065] Sun, 06 December 2020 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Getting close Barney the 843 shows it being a 6 ligne in the green book and Swartchild, I hesitate on the accuracy of them though but nice they give some illustrations to ponder.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7380&private=0
  • Attachment: 843.jpg
    (Size: 3.60KB, Downloaded 709 times)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14067 is a reply to message #14062] Sun, 06 December 2020 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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Deleted, info already posted.



Matthias

[Updated on: Mon, 07 December 2020 06:45]

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Re: Swamp finds... [message #14070 is a reply to message #14067] Mon, 07 December 2020 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I note the 87 has a “5” plus same sn style & orientation as mine on front plate. Gary’s illustrations are bringing us close, but the EP designation would’ve come almost a decade later. Possible the layouts changed and/or size (we’ve noted size changes before)

It is speculation, but this may have bearing on the mystery mark seen on the 839. A stylized L & J mark? I am wondering if he is our ebauche supplier to Favre (& Ditisheim) for the EP movements I’ve assumed were Favre, some being reverse engineered into in house Favre calibers ca1920. There’s a lot here to decipher. Thanks to all you real researchers—my brain is exploding! 🤯


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2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14071 is a reply to message #14070] Mon, 07 December 2020 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Gary, I should have been wearing my glasses yesterday evening. Correct, cal 843 is 6 ligne, also my source does not show an 8 but a 6.
OK, this leaves no number to be assigned to this particular movement for now. Are there more 7 3/4 or 8 ligne movements than:
103 -> Louis Cattin
139, 1396, 1397 -> (Marc Favre?)
615 -> (different supplier)
695, 696, 697 -> (much later)
857 -> (Louis Cattin?)

Dan, I don't think that these movements are based on Cattin ebauches. He did not have a workshop doing this, just assembly. These movements will be based on different supplier ebauches, LeCoultre, FHF and others are likely.
It still can be coincidence that Cattin is using the same ebauches as Gruen, but I think there is a high probability that Cattin supplied to Gruen. There is no proof yet at all.

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14073 is a reply to message #14071] Mon, 07 December 2020 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Barney, I agree the supplier ebauches is the way to go. The winding bits of Liz's 87 ebauche and one I have here of the same do have some leads to sort out as well. Also the number "5" plate marking found on Liz's 87 and the Catin cadaver.

[Updated on: Mon, 07 December 2020 18:15]

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Re: Swamp finds... [message #14075 is a reply to message #14073] Mon, 07 December 2020 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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OK I might be reaching a bit and not to take us off the beaten path, Liz can you verify if a similar mark exists on your 87 Imier?

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7383&private=0

Here is the mark on mine.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7384&private=0
Re: Swamp finds... [message #14076 is a reply to message #14075] Mon, 07 December 2020 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timeliz
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I will. Need to locate it.

Gary, Just to update...I haven't yet found this movement.
I must have stored this one in an unconventional location in my house...I'm going nuts!
The search continues....


"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2020 20:22]

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Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14354 is a reply to message #13986] Fri, 15 January 2021 02:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Gary—thanks for moving this discussion into the caliber database for us.

I believe your mark is a partially milled-off “4”. I do not see the “5” visible on yours like I see on mine & Liz’s. I’ve a theory on what it means and an observation on the 87, but I’ll add that on the 87 thread.

[Updated on: Fri, 15 January 2021 02:43]

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Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14455 is a reply to message #14354] Tue, 02 February 2021 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Let’s have a little fun tonight! A social media game for teens (1910s type)

Tell me: Who wore it best?

G&C (Gruen & Cattin)...
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7763&private=0

Or V&C?
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7762&private=0
Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14456 is a reply to message #14455] Tue, 02 February 2021 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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"Tell me: Who wore it best?".

As far as aesthetics go, my eyes quickly tell me that it's clear, definitely G&C.



Matthias
Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14457 is a reply to message #14456] Tue, 02 February 2021 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Dan,

this completes the picture, perfect finding!
Looks like V&C made the ebauche which built the base to the movement made by Cattin for Gruen. Often we are stuck with the ebauche and we cannot find out which factory made a complete movement out of it. Here we have a complete supply chain.
And as Matt stated: Gruen wins Smile

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14462 is a reply to message #14457] Tue, 02 February 2021 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thanks! And, yes, it’s Gruen ftw!
Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14509 is a reply to message #14462] Tue, 09 February 2021 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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And the plot thickens: the Lecoultre Club wants to join. Perfect match on setting spring, bridges, & 8L size. In the end, I’ll bet it’s Lecoultre supplying ebauches or movements for all—and I am okay with that!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274517536055
Re: Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision) [message #14512 is a reply to message #14509] Thu, 11 February 2021 02:34 Go to previous message
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Yes, indeed: Lecoultre Caliber 5

http://www.pocketwatch.ch/kaliber/lecoultre5.jpg
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