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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] (17''' experimental PW caliber)
The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14289] Sun, 10 January 2021 04:51 Go to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
Messages: 643
Registered: January 2017
Gruen Master
The title says it all.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7562&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7561&private=0

I checked the plates and the numbers match. This is a factory original.

Characteristic of V2:
- Marked Precision in diamond (!!!)
- Adjusted to "All Positions", marked on balance cock
- Moustache pallet fork
- Does not use banking pins
- Uses the V2 click and associated bridges

Characteristic of V3.5:
- Standard balance, not chronometer
- Serial number (!!!)

Characteristic of both:
- Can be Swiss stem set
- 19 jewels
- Can be marked Suisse
- Jewels in gold chaton settings

Characteristic of neither:
- Simple regulator (V3.5 would have a swan regulator and V2 would have a reverse swan regulator)
- Plate/balance jewel setting cut out exposes the banking plates & pallet fork (the edges are nickel plated, so it was done during the manufacturing process)

Anyone care to suggest a name?

[Updated on: Sun, 10 January 2021 04:54]

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Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14290 is a reply to message #14289] Sun, 10 January 2021 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
Gruen Authority
Theres a V2.5, could it be that?

Matthias
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14293 is a reply to message #14290] Sun, 10 January 2021 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
No. Although I guess it could be the prototype, but the V2.5 basically is the V3.5 with a different name.

The big thing is that V2.5 movements don't show up in the SN lists until 45k movements later! And by the time they do, the Precision in a diamond mark isn't being used anymore.
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14295 is a reply to message #14293] Sun, 10 January 2021 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
Messages: 1714
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Gruen Authority
Alex, I agree, this movement is a very strange hybrid. Factory made at that time? May be not, may be assembled from two different V calibers later...
But it is also possible that this is a factory made V2.5 prototype or something like that.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14297 is a reply to message #14295] Sun, 10 January 2021 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
No, it's original. I took off the barrel bridge and the cock, and the SNs match. Also, you can see that the plate SN and the winding bridge SN line up.

That balance cock is original. And that SN is original. And the winding apparatus is original. Because they can't not be, with matching numbers...

And that's leaving aside the other oddities, like the nickel-plated edges on the pallet fork cut-out.

The strangest thing to me, thinking about it, is the simple regulator. Any of the movements most similar to this one use micrometric regulators, and this one is just as highly adjusted (or at least claims to be). The only V-series caliber that never used a fancy regulator is the V7, which may also have been prototyping out at this time.

I mean, everybody made experimental movements - the only particular oddity about Gruen is that apparently they sold theirs as regular watches. But the regulator doesn't match anything else from this period.
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14306 is a reply to message #14297] Sun, 10 January 2021 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Location: Cincinnati
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I remember the prototype discussion on a different thread. It would appear to me you have found one, or a new caliber variant. Congrats!

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14314 is a reply to message #14306] Mon, 11 January 2021 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
So... I was looking it over again, to see if I had missed anything. I thought it felt kind of light and told myself I must be imagining things. But I thought, what if it is thinner than a normal V4? It would be lighter. So I compared edge on to a V4, and what do you know, it was thinner. But, I thought to myself, this must be in error! Or maybe the different grades have different thicknesses?

Yep. Definitely caliper time. So I measured. And foun I could not believe my measurements, so I did them again. Thus the multiple samples below.

Each movement measured at four spots on the main plates, and twice on the balance cock.

Results (no dial or hands):
V1 Suisse
Plate Thickness 4.0-4.1 mm
Balance cock 3.7 mm
V3 Madretsch
Plate Thickness 3.7-4.1 mm
Balance cock 3.65 mm
V4 Madretsch (prototype 128k)
Plate Thickness 3.7-4.1 mm
Balance cock 3.65 mm
V4 Suisse
Plate Thickness 3.7-4.1 mm
Balance cock 3.65 mm
V7 Switzerland (late model)
Plate Thickness 4.0-4.2 mm
Balance cock 3.65 mm

UV model
Plate Thickness 3.2-3.4 mm
Balance cock 2.75 mm

This V? Grade
Plate Thickness 3.6-3.7 mm
Balance cock 3.25 mm


Uh, what????

I think I'll go take some more measurements now.
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14315 is a reply to message #14314] Mon, 11 January 2021 03:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Registered: January 2017
Gruen Master
So, the height difference is contained entirely in the bridges. The bottom plate is the same thickness in all V-series watches. And also the LV-series (which also has an overall thickness of 4.0-4.1 mm. I just checked.)

I decided to measure one more thing: total height of the center wheel. It protrudes from both sides of the watch - and if the difference in thickness is important, it must be a part of it.

So here you go, center wheel measurements:

V1 Suisse 5.9 mm
V4 ex 1 6.2 mm
V4 ex 2 5.9 mm
V4 ex 3 6.0 mm
V4 ex 4 5.9 mm

LV1 5.75 mm

UV 4.9 mm

V? Grade Unknown 5.2 mm

Perhaps this movement was meant to prototype for a true Very-Verithin model? I recall a mention or two of a special movement in the Very-Verithin advertising, but never gave it credence. On the other hand, this is a *single movement*. Hardly a whole line of movements. And unfortunately its case is long gone.

I think I shall christen it Grade V2.25. Whatever it is, it's definitely intermediate between the V2 and V2 1/2. What better name than V2 1/4?

Also, I'm very glad that it runs and has a good staff. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire train and barrel were custom...

[Updated on: Mon, 11 January 2021 03:02]

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Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14317 is a reply to message #14315] Mon, 11 January 2021 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Location: Cincinnati
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The 2.25? Very cool, whatever it was built to be. What do you think is manufacturing date?

My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #14319 is a reply to message #14317] Mon, 11 January 2021 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
If the serial numbers were built in sequential order, this movement should have been built in 1917.

I also have another such movement recorded: SN 471132. It is a 17 jewel movement with similar features (at least the balance cock, regulator, and Precision marking in diamond). It is part of a wristwatch conversion somewhere. At the time I recorded it, I assumed it was a mongrel (and it still could be I guess). It would also have been built during 1916.

The SNs for 1916 (470k-477k) contain the most diversity of movements and odd movement markings anywhere in the sequence from 450-715k. And that was before this latest addition!
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18727 is a reply to message #14319] Mon, 20 November 2023 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
I now have found 2 of these. The second is also a bare movement, but it is undateable since it has no serial number on any part. The only other difference appears to be that it is marked for the Chronometer Balance (that it does not have).

One day, I hope to find one in a case.
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18728 is a reply to message #18727] Mon, 20 November 2023 05:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Gruen Authority
No serial is weird or are there more examples from the known V’s?

Intriguing.


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18729 is a reply to message #18728] Mon, 20 November 2023 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
Nope, this is the first one that I have seen or heard of.

Of course, since there's one, there are probably more. But definitely not many!
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18730 is a reply to message #18729] Tue, 21 November 2023 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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thesnark17 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 05:35
Nope, this is the first one that I have seen or heard of.

Of course, since there's one, there are probably more. But definitely not many!
Very interesting. Hopefully you'll share images of the unmarked version too.

Jenneke wrote on Sun, 19 November 2023 22:17
No serial is weird or are there more examples from the known V’s?

Intriguing.
Pretty sure that the seller here has his ID right... looks a lot like a V3 to me, but this example is unmarked:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175869476654
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10867&private=0


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18731 is a reply to message #18730] Tue, 21 November 2023 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
The DNA of that one is interesting. It looks like a combination of V-series, LV-series, and Lavina traits.

I'd guess that it was not made by Gruen.

Also I talked myself out of buying it, so I'm fairly convinced (though open to correction).
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18814 is a reply to message #18731] Mon, 12 February 2024 02:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
Unmarked version of this 19 jewel experimental caliber...

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10949&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10950&private=0
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18815 is a reply to message #18814] Tue, 13 February 2024 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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This is a cool discovery. Appreciate you sharing it with us. Was this a loose movement or one that came cased?

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18816 is a reply to message #18815] Tue, 13 February 2024 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesnark17 is currently offline  thesnark17
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Gruen Master
Unfortunately, it was loose. I hope to find one of these in a case one day.

This one had a slightly over-sized dial marked "Gruen Verithin". It definitely was cased at some point, presumably was sold to the public.
Re: The Caliber ... [I guess I get to name it, but I'm just speechless right now] [message #18817 is a reply to message #18816] Tue, 13 February 2024 23:37 Go to previous message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
Messages: 1832
Registered: May 2013
Location: Netherlands
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Nice one. Still looking strange without a swan neck.

Another gold case gone? ☹️


You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
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