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Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Caliber 615 (7.75L, Round, Extra Precision, 16J)
Caliber 615 [message #14355] Fri, 15 January 2021 03:16 Go to next message
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Here’s one I forgot I had—can’t locate movement but stumbled up on old pics. I could never ID until Gary’s post on the Cattin/mystery 8L thread.

Size: 7 3/4 ligne
Jewels: 16 (#s only)
Adjustments: 4 (#s only)
Configuration: hunter
Signed: Gruen W. Co. Suisse
Supplier: unknown (possibly Aegler by the markings)

Example date: ~1913-1915
Serial number(s): has two:
-bridges: 12?223 (perhaps 122223)
-front plate: 2223
Dial markings: unknown (didn’t capture)

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7633&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7634&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7635&private=0

[Updated on: Fri, 15 January 2021 03:33]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #14358 is a reply to message #14355] Fri, 15 January 2021 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adding a few details about this caliber's origin. I think it involves two Biel companies: Aegler & Concord.

The movement is based on a flagship movement for Concord Watch Company (mikrolisk points to Eugene Ducommun-Roulet, then Theodore Schaedeli). But it has unique features, including the bridges. As you will see, it is almost impossible to say who made vs. who finished this caliber, but I am pretty sure it started with Concord and finished at Aegler. This is the first Concord Watch Co base I know of in the Gruen arsenal. Perhaps that is why it is not an 8XX series like other Aeglers--it could also be an Aegler 615, or it could have come first, before caliber #s were shared.

Both makers seem to have been in this serial number range near 1913, when the regulatory marks changed to allow #s only for jewels & adjustments. It is certain that Rolex was sourcing Concord movements for its pocket & wrist watches in lesser sub-brands, but they were also using bespoke variants (presumably finished by Aegler) for the Rolex brand itself.

Here's a link to the base Concord caliber. A later serial number (186k, ca1915-1918), but you can see front plate & slightly different setting bits.

There are 4 features of the 615 I used to conclude Aegler supplied to Gruen:


  • the Click - Concord didn't use; Rolex did (example)
  • the Serial number - Aegler used a last 4 on front plate; Concord had full serial numbers (see above base caliber link)
  • the Bridges - no exact match observed yet; multiple variants in Rolex, Concord always the same
  • the Stud carrier - this screw carrier is characteristic on all Concords of this time; Aegler did not use this on Rebbergs movements, but here is a Rolex cased in 1919 with the Concord base, custom finger bridges, the screw carrier--and the hallmark Concord click.
Not totally conclusive, but wanted to share.


My two caveats:
1) I'm wrong many times a day --just ask my wife!
2) Always seeking to learn more

[Updated on: Fri, 15 January 2021 21:03]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #14465 is a reply to message #14358] Thu, 04 February 2021 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Well, surprise surprise I was wrong on Concord. Theirs is a stock Glycine 80.

Here’s our 615 as used by Phillip Wolf at Vertex:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/291847859683

[Updated on: Thu, 04 February 2021 14:08]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #14467 is a reply to message #14465] Thu, 04 February 2021 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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Cheerleader

Dan that is quite a tangled web. So if I get it both Vertex and Glycine were the ebauche and Aegler was the finisher?

Rolex = Glycine + Aegler
Gruen = Vertex + Aegler

Re: Caliber 615 [message #14472 is a reply to message #14467] Thu, 04 February 2021 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Tangled is right, Gary—but it’s my mind, piecing it together after 100 years. The chain sometimes involves a few steps, though, and all of these are variants of an FHF ebauche.

Aegler was finishing similar calibers in different sizes (see the Rolex cal 59). The second link above (small Rolex) is basically a stock Glycine 80. Too bad we can’t see the setting bits!

Look at dial side of Dr. Ranfft’s Glycine 80: you’ll see this 615 has different milling for the bits--Glycine won't fit.

I was just shocked to see this unique bridge layout show up in Vertex. TBD.

Re: Caliber 615 [message #14473 is a reply to message #14472] Thu, 04 February 2021 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Dan,

I am sorry, but in my personal opinion the caliber Gruen caliber 615 and the Concord movement you linked do not share more than the size. I can't see a match in any aspect, I think that is what you later meant by it being a Glycine 80 caliber.
The Vertex movement may be a later generation of the same ebauche used for Gruen 615 though. There are many similarities, too bad that we cannot see the dial side.
But for none of the movements I can see a relation to Aegler.
BTW, the ebauche of cal. 615 has some features which make me think of Lavina as source, but I may be wrong here.


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Thu, 04 February 2021 21:05]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #14474 is a reply to message #14473] Fri, 05 February 2021 05:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Yes, Concord was irrelevant. As for the rest, perhaps we will learn more in the future.

[Updated on: Fri, 05 February 2021 05:38]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #14475 is a reply to message #14474] Fri, 05 February 2021 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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I can exclude Lavina as source because they did not go below 13 ligne with their production portfolio at that time. 1917 they extended their product line to 9 ligne, 8 3/4 ligne in 1932. So it is impossible that they made this 7 3/4 ligne movement.

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
Re: Caliber 615 [message #15416 is a reply to message #14475] Tue, 07 September 2021 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Heading back to share two things:

First, I’ve been watching the Ph Wolf brands. I can say the front plate markings on my 615 (serial # in a rounded inset) do seem to fit with Aureole/Vertex as a source. Here is an Aureole match to another Gruen caliber (the 843). Can’t say if it’s a match to the 843 jewel mounts, as I’ve never seen one live, let alone the dial side. But the serial number format is a match for this 615: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aureole-17J-3-Adj-Watch-Movement-Re pairs-Parts-1249-/255088944974

Second, there actually IS one Gruen caliber family that has the Glycine click. It’s the 137 138 139 & 1397. Just found one in Barney’s old post.

https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=rview&th=92 2&rid=693

[Updated on: Tue, 07 September 2021 02:44]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #15417 is a reply to message #15416] Tue, 07 September 2021 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Registered: February 2014
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Hi Dan,

ups, sorry, I thought I shared this one already but looks like I did not. In March I finally ID'd Cal. 615 to be from Fabrique Aureole. Here it is:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8460&private=0

This is a snip from a November 1921 ad which also shows the Carouche movement you referenced from ebay:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8459&private=0

Barney


Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Tue, 07 September 2021 09:57]

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Re: Caliber 615 [message #15418 is a reply to message #15417] Tue, 07 September 2021 08:37 Go to previous message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Nice jobs you two!

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
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