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Home » The Gruen Model Database » 1940's » Veri-Thin Scientist (When is an Import not an import?)
Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14833] Wed, 05 May 2021 13:57 Go to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Model name: Veri-Thin Scientist
Type: variant of Import # 252 (or 245 or 249, per below)
Period/date: 1941-1943
Gender: Men’s

Case Maker: Pioneer
Case Material: 10k Pink GF / Guildite back -- bezel appears to be sterling base, from the discoloration
Case Serial: 6029908
Case Style no: 411SS-494

Caliber: 410SS Precision (17j)
Movement Maker: Gruen Watch Co
Movement Serial: 714682

Bracelet: 12k pink gold filled "grains of rice" link bracelet

Other info: Stamped with US patent # 2,229,979, covering the case design by Pioneer Watch Case Company.

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8094&private=0
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[Updated on: Sat, 15 May 2021 15:03]

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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14834 is a reply to message #14833] Wed, 05 May 2021 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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This one recently found a new home among us. A rarity to see a style number here—most were imports. So rare, 494 was not previously tied to a caliber number in the style number database. But it will cover 410, 410ss & 411, 411ss.


Hard to capture the pink gold, but the dial color is clear. “Scientist” is the only model of this type I’ve seen so far offered in pink gold, shown in grainy image in our 1940s ads thread. Description in 1941 ad matches, except the bracelet: 17j, sweep seconds, pink gf case & Guildite back. Ad is a stretch bracelet, but this one matches the case color exactly. If not original, it's a sweet addition.

Dating it: Patent dates to Jan 1941, as does ad (June) and style number 494. The movement sn others have dated to 1943. The first service mark appears to be from July 1941, a second from Nov 1947. I’m guessing 1941 is indeed the make.
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14857 is a reply to message #14834] Thu, 13 May 2021 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Hello!

I disagree that the case is the style of import 252. I'm going by the Shawkey Guide, on page 193. I think that 252 is more closely related to the VT Knox.

This one has had the dial re-finished.
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8131&private=0

The case you show is more consistent in appearance with import 245 and 249, on the proceeding page (p192).

That said... Neither of those are imports. The one labeled as the 245 is clearly the VT Defender, shown in the 1941 advert that also features the VT Dix. In fact, I think the image in Shawkey's book is from the ad. The one labeled as the 249 I would contend is the VT Marine. Gold fill.

both are goldfill on silver alloy basemetal. Movement serials are (left - 716404 and right - 713016)
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8129&private=0

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8130&private=0
I think this one is a varient on the VT Marine... Ad shows 17 jewel, and mine is 15 jewel. I have seen one 17 version of this watch, but it sold well beyond what I wanted to pay for it.
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8128&private=0

btw... I'd really like to see the ad for the VT Scientist.



All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2021 04:46]

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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14869 is a reply to message #14857] Sat, 15 May 2021 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thanks for the builds, Jack. Yes, I settled on 252 after looking at the general case and the dial (the minute/seconds track on the outer edge), but I am certainly uncertain! Added 245 & 249 to the OP.

Quick aside --- With the similarities in construction, I have wondered if Gruen licensed the Pioneer patent for all of its threaded import cases from the period. It is possible, since the patent was filed in 1939, that the technology had been available.

VT Scientist is shown in the "Engineer's perfect watch" ad, reaching all the way back to message #151. Haven't found a clearer image...
https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=75&
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14872 is a reply to message #14869] Sat, 15 May 2021 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Case wrote on Sat, 15 May 2021 09:12
Quick aside --- With the similarities in construction, I have wondered if Gruen licensed the Pioneer patent for all of its threaded import cases from the period. It is possible, since the patent was filed in 1939, that the technology had been available.
I've always been under the impression that the Pioneer patent was more to do with the way the crystal went into the case, than the other aspects. The Borgel/Taubert patents seem more close to the Gruen Watches. But I do not think that Tauberts supplied to Gruen.... I think it is somewhat too coincidental that Gruen went to the 6 point case back about the time Tauberts may have sued come companies for patent infringement. I think this was also the case for Pioneer WCCo and their polygonal case backs.


Case wrote on Sat, 15 May 2021 09:12
T Haven't found a clearer image...
Well... the irony is that the ad you show is a photograph I took of the print proofs for a number of ads that Charlie Cleeves had at a show in 2012, or so. I went back to the original image.... still not much better


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14875 is a reply to message #14872] Sun, 16 May 2021 02:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Just noticing, Jack, that one of yours is only 131 cases away, so likely in the same run. Assuming the other (473k) is still a Pioneer case, just with Pioneer dropping the lead digit?

I am just seeing that the sister ad ("the doctor's perfect watch") shows the VT Specialist. It, too, like the VT Scientist came in both YGF or Pink with Guildite back. But I do see the lugs better in that one, and it is not a match. At least we know the exact issues where the full page ads debuted. Perhaps one will surface. Guess this is where that 1940s counter catalog that disappeared would come in quite handy, to see these other models named!

Anyway, regarding the Pioneer/Kramer patent, it focuses on a full method of constructing the recesses & gaskets to make a case watertight, not just the crystal. Have to look at a Pioneer and a Gruen true import side by side to see what similarities there are. It does sound quite similar.

Full disclosure: I am not familiar with the other patents you mentioned.

From Samuel Kramer's patent filing:
Quote:
Having thus described my invention and illustrated its use, what I claim as new and desire to secure by Letters Patent, is:
1. A watchcase comprising a movement ring, a bezel having a bore adapted to receive said movement ring in close engagement, an annular recess in the upper peripheral portion of said ring, an annular recess in the lower peripheral portion of said ring, a back provided with a recess complementary to said last recess and having an outer wall portion in the form of a flange closely engaging the periphery of said movement ring, and a gasket seated in each of the recesses of said ring, a crystal having peripheral portions extending between the bezel and the upper gasket, and means for drawing said bezel and said back together, whereby said gaskets will be compressed and will effect a watertight joint between said ring on the one hand, and the crystal, the bezel and the back on the other hand.

2. In combination in a watchcase, a movement ring, a bezel having a bore to receive said movement ring in relatively close engagement, a recess running around the upper peripheral portion of said ring, a compressible gasket seated in said ring, a crystal having peripheral portions extending between the bezel and the gasket, and means for drawing said bezel against said crystal, whereby said crystal will press against said gasket and will compress it axially and expand it radially so as to cause its peripheral portions to press against the wall of the bore in said bezel, and to effect a Watertight joint between said ring on the one hand and said crystal and said bezel on the other hand.

3. In combination in a watchcase, a circularly contoured movement ring, a back having a peripheral Wall of an inner diameter to receive a portion of the movement ring, an annular recess in the end of said movement ring, a compressible gasket seated in said recess, said gasket being of a diameter to engage the inner surface of said peripheral wall of the back, and means to press said back against said gasket, whereby said gasket will be axially compressed and its peripheral portions will expand radially and press against the inner surface of said peripheral wall so as to make a watertight joint.

Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14884 is a reply to message #14875] Mon, 17 May 2021 03:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Btw, I did manage to find an online copy of the Nov 6 1941 Engineering News-Record. Sadly, the ad is not there. Perhaps it was on the back cover (that page is only one missing), or they cancelled the buy. I’m presuming this proof was also used for the copyright entry on Oct 15 1941. Have not located the Contractor Engineer Monthly for October 1941. It must be in that one, as a printed copy was needed to get the copyright.
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14885 is a reply to message #14884] Mon, 17 May 2021 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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I'll look for these in the thousands of Gruen ads I still have to image, my bets I have good profs of them all. ;-)
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14888 is a reply to message #14885] Mon, 17 May 2021 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barney Green
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Dan, also pages 131 and 132 are missing in that copy at least Smile

Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)

[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2021 06:22]

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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14889 is a reply to message #14888] Mon, 17 May 2021 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ephemerald
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That's funny, I had a look too. Where is page 48 when you need it?!
I also looked on eBay for them, surprisingly, quite a few! Even 4 copies from 1941 but not November. Crying or Very Sad


Matthias
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14890 is a reply to message #14889] Mon, 17 May 2021 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Yes, I was incorrect: it was printed there, AND a great many pages are missing from the version I was seeing! The ad is on Page 42 in the Nov 6 1941 issue of Engineering News-Record (Vol 127, part 2 - Oct-Dec). Verified through Google books, but no images available there.

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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #14910 is a reply to message #14890] Tue, 18 May 2021 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I likely could email Charlie Cleeves and ask for a close up of the ad. I'll update if I hear back.

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #16681 is a reply to message #14910] Fri, 03 June 2022 02:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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JackW wrote on Mon, 17 May 2021 19:07
I likely could email Charlie Cleeves and ask for a close up of the ad. I'll update if I hear back.
I just wanted to follow up on this...

I did hear back from Mr. Cleeves. He initially said he would look for the ad in his collection. After not hearing back for 6 months, I asked again but got no reply. He has retired from the jewelry business; his son now owns the shop. He was elected mayor of the town and likely has his hands full.

As things have been opening up in the last couple of months, I went to the Colorado School of mines, as they have one of the periodicals listed in the stacks collections. The printing of the issue allowed for the bindery to remove pages from the issue (see below), before they were hard bound. The ad is not in the bound version at the school. The USGS library will be opening again on June 6th. The Engineering News is listed in the stacks as a bound edition. The USGS might have used a different service for binding, which then left the ads. So I hope.

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All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #16683 is a reply to message #16681] Fri, 03 June 2022 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Good memory, Jack—and fingers crossed! I’ve not run into Mr. Cleves since I stopped hitting the NKY St Vincent de Paul thrift stores looking for watches; he still was voluntarily checking all their donated watches for functionality. In 2010 (years before catching the Gruen bug), I went to Maine for an Army buddy’s wedding and was seated all afternoon at the table with Charlie Cleves. Man, I’d like that opportunity again!
Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #18779 is a reply to message #16683] Fri, 05 January 2024 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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This might be too thin of sauce, but the other magazine, the Contractor's and Engineer's monthly has an image of the ad that was scanned in Oct 2021 and posted here:
https://archive.org/details/sim_contractors-and-engineers-ma gazine_1941-10_38_10/page/14/mode/2up?view=theater

a little better:
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10900&private=0

from the photo of the proof I took back in 2013:
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10901&private=0

What is now discernable is that the lugs appear to be tear-shaped. The hands are obelisque (-ish) in appearance and are quite distinctive. That it came on an expansion band; an important aspect as Barney has noted that band type will trigger a name change.
With the pink gold fill, the Guildite back and the type dial, this is a good match to the strap 462 in Bruce's guide, p. 135.
So, with a metal band it is the VT Scientist
with a strap, it would be the VT Specialist

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=10902&private=0

The case style is also used on the VT Rickenbacker, which vintage ads (1943) lists as coming in both pink and yellow GF.
....and the VT Colonial, which my notes indicate came with a Roman numeral dial.

I'll still keep looking for a copy of either magazine.


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Fri, 05 January 2024 19:50]

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Re: Veri-Thin Scientist [message #18780 is a reply to message #18779] Fri, 05 January 2024 20:29 Go to previous message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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Does look like a possible picture match. Only that scientist seems to have more curve instead of the straight line on the inside of the lug? Or its what I see in that blurry picture. 🤣

Ok, so if that scientist has these fancy lugs, the watch posted by Case above, hasn't been identified yet.


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[Updated on: Fri, 05 January 2024 21:08] by Moderator

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