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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #1100 is a reply to message #1097] |
Fri, 19 July 2013 18:20   |
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Bazzab
Messages: 181
Registered: May 2013
Location: Tampa Bay Fl
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Gruen Guildsman |
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JackW wrote on Thu, 18 July 2013 22:25 I'm of the opinion that these are Fontainemelon in origin.
I am really not convinced this is made by Fontainemelon ,if the statement made on WUS is correct The patent no shown describes the combination of the setting lever, clutch lever and setting lever spring to move the clutch wheel up and down. and not the movement
The other Fontainemelon movement used by Gruen, the 885, is clearly marked, with their trademark, why not this one?
This movement is stamped Precision and the 1926 Standard Parts, where this movement is featured, states
"Precision" This Gruen pledge mark is placed only upon watches of finer quality, accuracy and finish, made only in the Precision workshop.
It would seem a little strange to make this statement, and then go completely against it !
Please if you some more information confirming your thoughts, please share with the group
B
http://www.watchesoftheguild.com/
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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #1103 is a reply to message #1102] |
Fri, 19 July 2013 23:02 |
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JackW
Messages: 1939
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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Gruen Authority
Head Janitor
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BARRY!!!
How are you? I offer as my supporting evidence that patent #51482 is stamped clearly on the movement. This is registered to Fontainemelon. The other non-Gruen watches that have been posted on the interwebs with this same patent number use a range of variants on the patent. Different companies and slight variations on the over-all setting design. It was speculated that Gruen was simply using the patents, paying royalties for it likely. Possible but why would Gruen do such a thing, given that Gruen had their own designs and tooling to create in-house movements. Hence, I think the simpler explanation is that this was an ebauche from Font and finished for or by Gruen.
Quote:The other Fontainemelon movement used by Gruen, the 885, is clearly marked, with their trademark, why not this one? not all of the known ebauche movements are marked. We've seen examples of where marking have been removed or etched-out. Lack of a marking is not evidence one way or the other.
Peace!
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
[Updated on: Sat, 20 July 2013 03:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #1109 is a reply to message #1103] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 16:38 |
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Bazzab
Messages: 181
Registered: May 2013
Location: Tampa Bay Fl
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Gruen Guildsman |
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Jack!!! I am fine Thanks for asking! How about yourself?
I have read what you have said, but I am sorry, I really can't, in all honesty, except a change in Gruen knowledge based on a "hunch"!
Its been well established that Precision marked movements are made at the Precision factory!
Paul S states in his Gruen history "The Biel factory was also sometimes referred to as Time Hill, but was normally called the Precision Factory or Precision Workshop ("workshop" sounded better in ads about the old guilds). The highest-quality Gruen movements were produced there, and only the watches containing these better calibres were marked "Precision" on the dial and movement"
Bruce Shawkey in his Collectors guide states that this movement(99) was made in house.(page27), and there is a slew of Gruen material stating the same thing!
Why would Gruen use other peoples technology ,when they have the ability to produce they own, I cant say, but what I would say , with some degree of certainty, is that when Gruen did go to outside makers, they marked the movements, Guild, the 157 Quadron comes to mind!
For me too consider your hunch any further, you will need to produce some really hard evidence, supporting it.
Gruen consided their Precision marked movements the best, buying in a ebauche and marking it, Precision, would really damage their reputation if caught
"not all of the known ebauche movements are marked."
I was talking specific about the FHF movements.used by Gruen
"We've seen examples of where marking have been removed or etched-out"
I never seen this on a Gruen Precision movement! again, this would unrate the movements
I really dont have anything else to add on this
Shalom!!
http://www.watchesoftheguild.com/
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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #1110 is a reply to message #1109] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:08 |
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JackW
Messages: 1939
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver
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Gruen Authority
Head Janitor
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for your post and maybe it will elicit additional inputs from Paul. I will say that I agree with you that 'Precision' marked movements should be a sign that they came from the Gruen facility in Biel. Does this mean all of them? Can you think of another 'Precision' marked movement that also displays a patent number that isn't registered to Gruen. I'm hard pressed to think of one. At this point, I need to say I'll go do some more leg work and also continue to get my stuff unpacked. Bruce's book is still in a box and now that I have my shelves, I can start on that box to look at the references you have provided. As to your example with the 157, I believe there was some argument that this was also an in-house caliber until we came up with the patents showing the association with M. Favre. Things may yet turn...
Cheers my friend!
edit...
Fixed some typos and I also found my copy of Bruce's book. Bruce is citing Paul, so really you have one source for the statement that the cal 99 was 'in-house'. Although we can agree to disagree further until something more concrete shows up.
All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me
"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
[Updated on: Mon, 22 July 2013 04:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #1116 is a reply to message #1110] |
Mon, 22 July 2013 15:31 |
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Bazzab
Messages: 181
Registered: May 2013
Location: Tampa Bay Fl
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Gruen Guildsman |
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I my view I would expect all Precision marked movements to come out of Biel, but this is Gruen, and anything is possible!
To be honest, until you posted about the 99, I have never checked for patent numbers on Precision marked movements,that will now been rectified, not that I have seen the other side of many Precision movements!
You are totally correct,on the 157, just proves we should not take everything for granted, which is the total opposite of what I have said in these posts, you know what I mean, and yes things may turn.
We have come a long way discovering some of the secrets of Gruen, I am sure theres a lot more still out there !
Hope you have settled in your new home!
Cheers B
http://www.watchesoftheguild.com/
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| Re: The caliber 98 [message #7886 is a reply to message #7866] |
Wed, 08 March 2017 21:09 |
Gary
Messages: 2119
Registered: May 2013
Location: Left Coast
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Gruen Authority
Cheerleader |
 
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When you see the "Adjusted X Adjts" 3 are usually positional adjustments DU, DD and PD. 4 adjustments, the 4th would normally be temperature. So your movement being labeled "adjusted temperature" would have included the 3 positional adjustments. Makes no sense to adjust only for temperature.
Hence the precision stamp on your movement most likely means 4 adjustments.
[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2017 21:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The caliber 98 / 99 / 997 [message #15485 is a reply to message #7886] |
Tue, 14 September 2021 03:07 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Picking up the thread after 4 (or 8!) years. It’s puzzled me since I joined—how can you differentiate a 98 from a 99? Once caliber stamps were added, all of the family—including the 997–were always stamped “98”.
I did find there was a sub-seconds version (1926 catalog lists an alternate 4th wheel with seconds pivot). But of which caliber(s)?
Thojil’s comment on “different setting gear” stuck in the back of my mind. So I dug through all I could. All my 1920s cases marked for a caliber say “99,” and they all look the same—and identical to 997 besides the capped escapement.
But there was ONE case marked “98”, the earliest. Maybe 1913 or 14. Here’s what I found—almost visually identical to my later 99s except for one thing:
Basically, I’m proposing that the 98 supplier upgraded in the 1910s to a beefier cog winding wheel (maybe other changes not recognizable), making what Gruen called internally the caliber 99. The 997 came later, some say 1917—I’ll say 1920, but it again follows the upgraded winding wheel (99). Hence, the caliber number 997.
I considered that the 98 could be a missing hunter config or refer to the subsecond version. The first is more possible, given what we see in 1920s stamps like 825 vs 826, but no hunter has surfaced.
Thoughts? Anyone else with a “98” marked case?
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