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The caliber 98 [message #1094] Thu, 18 July 2013 21:37 Go to next message
Thojil is currently offline  Thojil
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The caliber 98 is a 15 or 17-jewel movement and is 9-3/4 ligne or 21.99mm in diameter (1926 Standardized Parts, page 22). According to the later Material Catalog 539 two other variants exist, caliber 99 with 15-jewels but different setting gear and caliber 997 a 17-jewel variant of this movement. This later information shows caliber 98 only as a 15-jewel implying the 17-jewel variant changed to caliber 997 at some point. Production start was about 1915.

index.php?t=getfile&id=495&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=496&private=0
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Re: The caliber 98 [message #1097 is a reply to message #1094] Thu, 18 July 2013 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Thanks for posting this one! I've the 15-jewel variant and I've posted it over here: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/gruen-cal-98-swiss-patent-5 1482-a-746331.html

I'm of the opinion that these are Fontainemelon in origin.


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton
Re: The caliber 98 [message #1100 is a reply to message #1097] Fri, 19 July 2013 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bazzab is currently offline  Bazzab
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JackW wrote on Thu, 18 July 2013 22:25
I'm of the opinion that these are Fontainemelon in origin.


I am really not convinced this is made by Fontainemelon ,if the statement made on WUS is correct The patent no shown describes the combination of the setting lever, clutch lever and setting lever spring to move the clutch wheel up and down. and not the movement

The other Fontainemelon movement used by Gruen, the 885, is clearly marked, with their trademark, why not this one?

This movement is stamped Precision and the 1926 Standard Parts, where this movement is featured, states
"Precision" This Gruen pledge mark is placed only upon watches of finer quality, accuracy and finish, made only in the Precision workshop.
It would seem a little strange to make this statement, and then go completely against it !

Please if you some more information confirming your thoughts, please share with the group
B


Re: The caliber 98 [message #1101 is a reply to message #1100] Fri, 19 July 2013 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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I have a 15 jewel watch movement that looks the same but has no Precision mark and no caliber number on it. Case back says 99.

index.php?t=getfile&id=500&private=0

Is there a visual difference between 98 and 99?



You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: The caliber 98 [message #1102 is a reply to message #1101] Fri, 19 July 2013 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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The 98 and 99 were nearly identical as far as I can tell. Sort of like the 117 and 119. I'm sure there's a difference somewhere, but I don't know what it is. And I'm with Bazzab. I assume they were made at the Precision factory.
Re: The caliber 98 [message #1103 is a reply to message #1102] Fri, 19 July 2013 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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BARRY!!!

How are you? I offer as my supporting evidence that patent #51482 is stamped clearly on the movement. This is registered to Fontainemelon. The other non-Gruen watches that have been posted on the interwebs with this same patent number use a range of variants on the patent. Different companies and slight variations on the over-all setting design. It was speculated that Gruen was simply using the patents, paying royalties for it likely. Possible but why would Gruen do such a thing, given that Gruen had their own designs and tooling to create in-house movements. Hence, I think the simpler explanation is that this was an ebauche from Font and finished for or by Gruen.

Quote:
The other Fontainemelon movement used by Gruen, the 885, is clearly marked, with their trademark, why not this one?
not all of the known ebauche movements are marked. We've seen examples of where marking have been removed or etched-out. Lack of a marking is not evidence one way or the other.

Peace!


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Sat, 20 July 2013 03:45]

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Re: The caliber 98 [message #1109 is a reply to message #1103] Sun, 21 July 2013 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bazzab is currently offline  Bazzab
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Jack!!! I am fine Thanks for asking! How about yourself?
I have read what you have said, but I am sorry, I really can't, in all honesty, except a change in Gruen knowledge based on a "hunch"!
Its been well established that Precision marked movements are made at the Precision factory!
Paul S states in his Gruen history "The Biel factory was also sometimes referred to as Time Hill, but was normally called the Precision Factory or Precision Workshop ("workshop" sounded better in ads about the old guilds). The highest-quality Gruen movements were produced there, and only the watches containing these better calibres were marked "Precision" on the dial and movement"
Bruce Shawkey in his Collectors guide states that this movement(99) was made in house.(page27), and there is a slew of Gruen material stating the same thing!
Why would Gruen use other peoples technology ,when they have the ability to produce they own, I cant say, but what I would say , with some degree of certainty, is that when Gruen did go to outside makers, they marked the movements, Guild, the 157 Quadron comes to mind!
For me too consider your hunch any further, you will need to produce some really hard evidence, supporting it.
Gruen consided their Precision marked movements the best, buying in a ebauche and marking it, Precision, would really damage their reputation if caught

"not all of the known ebauche movements are marked."
I was talking specific about the FHF movements.used by Gruen

"We've seen examples of where marking have been removed or etched-out"
I never seen this on a Gruen Precision movement! again, this would unrate the movements

I really dont have anything else to add on this

Shalom!!


Re: The caliber 98 [message #1110 is a reply to message #1109] Sun, 21 July 2013 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JackW is currently offline  JackW
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Hi Barry,

Thanks for your post and maybe it will elicit additional inputs from Paul. I will say that I agree with you that 'Precision' marked movements should be a sign that they came from the Gruen facility in Biel. Does this mean all of them? Can you think of another 'Precision' marked movement that also displays a patent number that isn't registered to Gruen. I'm hard pressed to think of one. At this point, I need to say I'll go do some more leg work and also continue to get my stuff unpacked. Bruce's book is still in a box and now that I have my shelves, I can start on that box to look at the references you have provided. As to your example with the 157, I believe there was some argument that this was also an in-house caliber until we came up with the patents showing the association with M. Favre. Things may yet turn...

Cheers my friend!

edit...
Fixed some typos and I also found my copy of Bruce's book. Bruce is citing Paul, so really you have one source for the statement that the cal 99 was 'in-house'. Although we can agree to disagree further until something more concrete shows up.


All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Mon, 22 July 2013 04:02]

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Re: The caliber 98 [message #1116 is a reply to message #1110] Mon, 22 July 2013 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bazzab is currently offline  Bazzab
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I my view I would expect all Precision marked movements to come out of Biel, but this is Gruen, and anything is possible!
To be honest, until you posted about the 99, I have never checked for patent numbers on Precision marked movements,that will now been rectified, not that I have seen the other side of many Precision movements!
You are totally correct,on the 157, just proves we should not take everything for granted, which is the total opposite of what I have said in these posts, you know what I mean, and yes things may turn.
We have come a long way discovering some of the secrets of Gruen, I am sure theres a lot more still out there !
Hope you have settled in your new home!
Cheers B




Re: The caliber 98 [message #1118 is a reply to message #1116] Mon, 22 July 2013 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afire is currently offline  afire
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If there were "Precision" movements that weren't made at the "Precision" factory during this era, then that would mean that Gruen lied to us. Unthinkable.
Re: The caliber 98 [message #1122 is a reply to message #1118] Mon, 22 July 2013 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bazzab is currently offline  Bazzab
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afire wrote on Mon, 22 July 2013 16:51
then that would mean that Gruen lied to us. Unthinkable.


http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h399/bazzab51/can-o-worms.gif

B


[Updated on: Mon, 22 July 2013 21:25]

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Re: The caliber 98 [message #7843 is a reply to message #1122] Sat, 25 February 2017 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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I just acquired these two movements.

The 98 stamped movement has 4 adjustments. No precision marking but has a precision marked dial. Has the 51482 patent #
The other 98/99 movement has 3 adjustments. No precision marking. Has the 51482 patent #

My theory is the extra adjustment could be what's making it precision, and not made at the precision factory. Just a hunch.

98 back
index.php?t=getfile&id=3234&private=0
98 dial
index.php?t=getfile&id=3237&private=0
98/99 back
index.php?t=getfile&id=3235&private=0
98/99 dial side
index.php?t=getfile&id=3236&private=0

[Updated on: Sat, 25 February 2017 02:04]

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Re: The caliber 98 [message #7866 is a reply to message #7843] Sun, 05 March 2017 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thojil is currently offline  Thojil
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Interesting observation and this could be an explanation for the later 99.
My 98 though is marked Precision on the movement, has 17 jewels but is adjusted to temperature only??
Or did "adjusted temperature" automatically imply to positions as well.
Re: The caliber 98 [message #7886 is a reply to message #7866] Wed, 08 March 2017 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary
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When you see the "Adjusted X Adjts" 3 are usually positional adjustments DU, DD and PD. 4 adjustments, the 4th would normally be temperature. So your movement being labeled "adjusted temperature" would have included the 3 positional adjustments. Makes no sense to adjust only for temperature.

Hence the precision stamp on your movement most likely means 4 adjustments.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2017 21:18]

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Re: The caliber 98 / 99 / 997 [message #15485 is a reply to message #7886] Tue, 14 September 2021 03:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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Picking up the thread after 4 (or 8!) years. It’s puzzled me since I joined—how can you differentiate a 98 from a 99? Once caliber stamps were added, all of the family—including the 997–were always stamped “98”.

I did find there was a sub-seconds version (1926 catalog lists an alternate 4th wheel with seconds pivot). But of which caliber(s)?

Thojil’s comment on “different setting gear” stuck in the back of my mind. So I dug through all I could. All my 1920s cases marked for a caliber say “99,” and they all look the same—and identical to 997 besides the capped escapement.

But there was ONE case marked “98”, the earliest. Maybe 1913 or 14. Here’s what I found—almost visually identical to my later 99s except for one thing:

/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8481&private=0
/vgforum/index.php?t=getfile&id=8482&private=0

Basically, I’m proposing that the 98 supplier upgraded in the 1910s to a beefier cog winding wheel (maybe other changes not recognizable), making what Gruen called internally the caliber 99. The 997 came later, some say 1917—I’ll say 1920, but it again follows the upgraded winding wheel (99). Hence, the caliber number 997.

I considered that the 98 could be a missing hunter config or refer to the subsecond version. The first is more possible, given what we see in 1920s stamps like 825 vs 826, but no hunter has surfaced.

Thoughts? Anyone else with a “98” marked case?
Re: The caliber 98 / 99 / 997 [message #15585 is a reply to message #15485] Thu, 30 September 2021 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Case is currently offline  Case
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So no one else intrigued to see Wolf Teeth winding gears on a 98? Ah well...
Re: The caliber 98 / 99 / 997 [message #15588 is a reply to message #15585] Thu, 30 September 2021 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jenneke is currently offline  Jenneke
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I thought you meant the screw in the middle off Adjust… but now I see what you see. Strange. Not seen on other calibers, right?

You can only waste time if you forget to enjoy it - Loesje
Re: The caliber 98 / 99 / 997 [message #15589 is a reply to message #15588] Thu, 30 September 2021 21:20 Go to previous message
afire is currently offline  afire
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Jenneke wrote on Thu, 30 September 2021 15:41
I thought you meant the screw in the middle off Adjust… but now I see what you see.
Same here. I thought I was looking at a beefier pivot or something in the second picture and didn't even notice the wolf's teeth gears in the first.
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