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from the swamp [message #4938]

Sun, 25 January 2015 17:09

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Any of you pick up this one?
231455029031

I'd be interested in remains of the band.

All I know is based on hard work & writing by others. I can only aspire to augment this body of knowledge. If I am wrong it is because of my own failings. -me

"If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

[Updated on: Sun, 25 January 2015 17:10]

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Re: from the swamp [message #4946 is a reply to message #4938]

Mon, 26 January 2015 16:14

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Yep. And you are welcome to the band. Hopefully there won't be much of a struggle to remove it.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4948 is a reply to message #4946]

Mon, 26 January 2015 16:40

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Incidentally, I was surprised that I didn't have a little more competition. Then again, it's anybody's guess what horrors await me when I pop open that case back.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4952 is a reply to message #4948]

Tue, 27 January 2015 01:55

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Awesome!

All I care about are the links; they are near enough to another band on one where the previous owner had skinnier wrists than mine.

As to getting it so cheap, well... Luck is with you. Post the horrors or lack there of when it arrives.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4962 is a reply to message #4952]

Tue, 27 January 2015 14:30

Thojil
Messages: 681
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

I would have put in an offer, if I would have seen it Rolling Eyes

Interesting to see what movement is inside. I've seen at least cal. 771, 647 and one other unidentified fitted to these Out-O-Doors models.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4965 is a reply to message #4962]

Tue, 27 January 2015 16:17

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Thomas, I'm pretty sure this is a "Strap 1" that will contain a 13 ligne Rebberg cal. 870. I believe that the telltale sign is the wire lugs running the entire width of the case. But I think the comparatively soft-cornered case and double sunk dial also suggest Strap 1. But I've only had this model once before, so I could easily be surprised and find something else in there. But Jack, Timeticker and Cary have what appear to be the same watch and they've all had the 870.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4991 is a reply to message #4965]

Fri, 30 January 2015 16:17

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Well, it turned out to be a mixed bag. The case is in nice shape, the dial has no flaws. I was a little relieved when I looked at the movement. At least it looked clean. But, the balance staff is broken. I can hardly see the hairspring (not sure what that means, but probably not a good sign). And when you wind it, the center wheel just spins freely (again, not sure what that means, but probably not good). Looks like I'm on the hunt for a donor 870. And I just spotted one on eBay a couple of months ago and thought about grabbing it in case I ever nabbed another Strap 1. D'oh!

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Re: from the swamp [message #4993 is a reply to message #4991]

Fri, 30 January 2015 21:25

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

Some pics:

http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Watches/Gruen-Strap-1/i-zBZcJTP/1/L/Strap%201-1-L.jpg

http://mccarthyorth.smugmug.com/Watches/Gruen-Strap-1/i-d6DZWcc/1/L/Strap%201-2-L.jpg

Clean might have been an overstatement regarding the movement. But at least it's not a pile of rust. And I shouldn't complain, considering the shape Jack's 870 movement was in when he got it and he managed to get it running.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4997 is a reply to message #4993]

Sat, 31 January 2015 00:41

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

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General pain in the rear
Site Admin

You seem to be missing the hairspring. no wonder you cannot find it: Ain't there. Sounds like you are missing other parts too if the center wheel is spinnng freely. I posted over on your "wanted" thread. May be able to help out with some aspects of this project.

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Re: from the swamp [message #4999 is a reply to message #4965]

Sat, 31 January 2015 01:03

C. Hurt
Messages: 253
Registered: May 2013

Gruen Guildsman

afire wrote on Tue, 27 January 2015 10:17

Thomas, I'm pretty sure this is a "Strap 1" that will contain a 13 ligne Rebberg cal. 870. I believe that the telltale sign is the wire lugs running the entire width of the case. But I think the comparatively soft-cornered case and double sunk dial also suggest Strap 1. But I've only had this model once before, so I could easily be surprised and find something else in there. But Jack, Timeticker and Cary have what appear to be the same watch and they've all had the 870.

The double sunk dial is the tell. I've never had a 771 (or one of the other movements , of which I have two) with one.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5014 is a reply to message #4997]

Mon, 02 February 2015 16:59

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

JackW wrote on Fri, 30 January 2015 18:41

You seem to be missing the hairspring. no wonder you cannot find it: Ain't there.

It actually is, or at least remnants of it are. Whatever's there (I can't really tell other than that there's some spring there) is under the balance cock. Either way, I presume it's pretty much useless.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5017 is a reply to message #5014]

Tue, 03 February 2015 04:50

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

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Ha!

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Re: from the swamp [message #5033 is a reply to message #5017]

Wed, 04 February 2015 05:55

MikeTheWatchGuy
Messages: 351
Registered: May 2013
Location: North Carolina

Gruen Guildsman

I have one without the sunken dial, but it's still a silver case. It also has a caliber 611. I'm wondering since the Strap 2, etc, have a 611 if the Strap 1 shipped with multiple movements. Ads from the early 20's from Gruen give long lists of prices indicating they are "according to case and movement". A similar watch, the 1922 No. 123 Cushion Square, for example, lists 9 prices ranging from $25 to $125.

index.php?t=getfile&id=2072&private=0

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Attachment: Gruen Military 04.JPG
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Re: from the swamp [message #5035 is a reply to message #5033]

Wed, 04 February 2015 21:42

Thojil
Messages: 681
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

MikeTheWatchGuy wrote on Wed, 04 February 2015 06:55

I have one without the sunken dial, but it's still a silver case. It also has a caliber 611.

Mike, but that's a 771 or or am I missing something?

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Re: from the swamp [message #5036 is a reply to message #5035]

Wed, 04 February 2015 22:15

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
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Agree with thojil on this one. It's an A. Schild made movement. Incidentally, one of these in a Canadian-made round case went over eBay this past week. Interesting as it was marked "Primo" on the movement but no Gruen markings on the case in the images.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5037 is a reply to message #5036]

Wed, 04 February 2015 22:31

C. Hurt
Messages: 253
Registered: May 2013

Gruen Guildsman

The Premo had been recased, and the dial was shot. I had one that was signed case and movement at one time, haven't seen another. Also an A. Schild movement.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5038 is a reply to message #5037]

Thu, 05 February 2015 02:38

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
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C. Hurt wrote on Wed, 04 February 2015 22:31

The Premo had been recased

Yep. There was an obvious case screw mark which made me very suspicious on that one. Although I recall that Gruen cased some movements in Canada using AWCC made/marked case but I was pretty sure it would/should say Gruen on the case too.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5040 is a reply to message #5038]

Thu, 05 February 2015 20:06

MikeTheWatchGuy
Messages: 351
Registered: May 2013
Location: North Carolina

Gruen Guildsman

DOH! It's not a 611, for sure. It matches the 771 in the 1926 parts book (page 164 of the Repairer's Ref), but it didn't look 13 lignes to me until I measured it a few times. Weird movement to be in there. There's enough room in the case with no problem, not an overly tight fit as if it were replacing a 707. Sloppy research on my part. Thanks for the correction! Any idea of what it could be?

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Re: from the swamp [message #5041 is a reply to message #5040]

Thu, 05 February 2015 22:02

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

MikeTheWatchGuy wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 14:06

Any idea of what it could be?

I would say it is Plate 22C from the 1918 catalog. Unfortunately, the 1918 catalog can be quite vague. In the price list at the end it just calls it Out o' Doors - Paris Square Style with a price range of $21 to $80 in sterling silver. And apparently these were supplied with the canvas strap.

Some of the other entries are more specific. For example, Strap 1 = Plate 23B and it does list some sort of model number - M20R for "fully jeweled" movement (I would assume this is the 15 jewel 870), sterling silver; M647R 17 jewels, sterling silver; M647RG 17 jewels, 14k green gold.

For the first time I'm noticing that some of these model numbers are clearly referencing the movement caliber. I'd wager that the 17 jewel versions of the Strap 1 contain the cal. 647. And Plate 23A, M89RZG has an 18 jewel movement, which would fit the cal. 89. But other numbers don't seem to. Confusing.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5044 is a reply to message #5041]

Fri, 06 February 2015 16:14

MikeTheWatchGuy
Messages: 351
Registered: May 2013
Location: North Carolina

Gruen Guildsman

afire wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 22:02

MikeTheWatchGuy wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 14:06
Any idea of what it could be?

I would say it is Plate 22C from the 1918 catalog. Unfortunately, the 1918 catalog can be quite vague. In the price list at the end it just calls it Out o' Doors - Paris Square Style with a price range of $21 to $80 in sterling silver. And apparently these were supplied with the canvas strap.

Wow! Spot on in my opinion. I didn't even think to check the Worthy Company book / 1918 catalog. It needs to get into my list of Gruen publications to search. My volume 3 was to be a compilation of the catalogs and early leaflets that had plates on them such as the ones in the small calendar books. It would have come in handy for this kind of ID. But, it's not to be, at least not by me Smile

Note for authors (anyone can be an author) out there.... if someone wishes to pick up the Gruen ID Book torch, I think this compilation book of the 1929 Guild, 1918 Worthy Company, etc, would make a fine reference book for collectors. There are a lot of great resources that can be pieced together into a single book.

Thank you afire for the ID and the reminder that this document is quite important for early model IDs.

I see an opportunity to share with anyone that's interested the various ways to obtain the book and others like it....

Many readers may not know that google has made this book freely accessible via the Cincinnati Public Library system and another from Ohio State Univ. Be aware that some of these versions are missing the pricing data at the end. This is because the price list is a separate booklet that came with the Worthy Company book. You'll even find it in Google's GooglePlay bookstore

You can download the 1918 Worthy Company of Watchmakers PDF from the Cincinnati Library's Virtual Library.

And there's a viewable online version courtesy of the Hathi Trust Digital Library.

The "Google Books" entry for the Worthy Company book gives you options of having the book PRINTED and mailed to you. As a test I did this for the Worthy Company book and it turned out pretty good for a cost of $8.

All of these are tied into the WorldCat library system. I highly recommend looking into Worldcat as you can check out the original book and have it sent to your local library. It's an awesomely powerful research capability and gives you the rare opportunity to see and touch original materials.

These pictures are of the newly printed version of Worthy Company and an original copy.
index.php?t=getfile&id=2083&private=0

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Attachment: Worthy Company Book 002.JPG
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[Updated on: Fri, 06 February 2015 16:36]

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Re: from the swamp [message #5086 is a reply to message #5044]

Sat, 14 February 2015 01:11

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Well Mike, with those pages you posted, it is then only appropriate to ask whom won this one? Its a Plate 23D.
111590876413

First time I have seen one on the swamp.
incidentally if it is a local, then you should be aware that a parts movement is listed with Dashto. Item #024.1288 I thought I had a good bid on that one. dang.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 February 2015 01:12]

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Re: from the swamp [message #5088 is a reply to message #5086]

Sat, 14 February 2015 01:24

GaryM
Messages: 1785
Registered: May 2013
Location: Seattle

Gruen Authority
Cheerleader

Yeah I think that exploding 23D was a mission for someone on this forum, I cannot recall....

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Re: from the swamp [message #5089 is a reply to message #5086]

Sat, 14 February 2015 02:13

C. Hurt
Messages: 253
Registered: May 2013

Gruen Guildsman

Twasn't me. I'd have bought it had I seen it. I've had 23C, but that's the first D I've seen.

It's not a big watch though, as the movement is 10 1/2 lignes, iirc. But that dial is killer.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5090 is a reply to message #5088]

Sat, 14 February 2015 02:19

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

GaryM wrote on Sat, 14 February 2015 01:24

Yeah I think that exploding 23D was a mission for someone on this forum, I cannot recall....

Where is afire?

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Re: from the swamp [message #5096 is a reply to message #5090]

Mon, 16 February 2015 04:41

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

JackW wrote on Fri, 13 February 2015 20:19

GaryM wrote on Sat, 14 February 2015 01:24
Yeah I think that exploding 23D was a mission for someone on this forum, I cannot recall....

Where is afire?

You guys almost gave me a heart attack! It's 23A I'm obsessed with. The description in the price list references an "extra heavy hand-made 18 kt. green gold case" and the price was $230. I'm sure the 18 jewel cal. 89 has much to do with the price, but for $230 in 1918, it simply must have been an all around spectacular watch.

I was actually watching that 23D, but ended up not bidding. I probably should have taken a shot, but the dial is a bit rough for my tastes and it looks like it would be a challenge to refinish properly.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5098 is a reply to message #5089]

Mon, 16 February 2015 17:24

Thojil
Messages: 681
Registered: May 2013
Location: Concorès, France

Gruen Master

C. Hurt wrote on Sat, 14 February 2015 03:13

as the movement is 10 1/2 lignes, iirc. But that dial is killer.

What movement is that? I suppose I could look it up, but too lazy Very Happy

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Re: from the swamp [message #5100 is a reply to message #5098]

Mon, 16 February 2015 19:40

timeliz
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

It should be cal 610.

I'll know more when I receive it.

It does look very similar to my Buren...

index.php?t=getfile&id=2115&private=0

Attachment: buren mov crop.JPG
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"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Mon, 16 February 2015 19:42]

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Re: from the swamp [message #5104 is a reply to message #5100]

Tue, 17 February 2015 04:09

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Ahhh! We have the answer.

Nice score.

afire brings up the concern I had on dial: hard to refinish BUT it looks like the figures are chased into the surface and if that is the case, then I bet it'll clean-up well.

Can't wait to see better pictures!

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Re: from the swamp [message #5185 is a reply to message #5104]

Fri, 27 February 2015 02:54

kastner
Messages: 324
Registered: May 2013
Location: Pasadena CA

Gruen Guildsman

Anyone interested in a Bulova with a Watch Specialties Company movement? Item number 301544810517

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Re: from the swamp [message #5326 is a reply to message #5185]

Tue, 24 March 2015 03:06

kastner
Messages: 324
Registered: May 2013
Location: Pasadena CA

Gruen Guildsman

This ad made me laugh. Make sure to read the description as well: 121603614654

.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 March 2015 03:06]

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Re: from the swamp [message #5342 is a reply to message #5326]

Fri, 27 March 2015 19:29

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

kastner wrote on Tue, 24 March 2015 03:06

This ad made me laugh. Make sure to read the description as well: 121603614654

.

This... http://stuffonmycat.com/

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Re: from the swamp [message #5374 is a reply to message #5342]

Fri, 03 April 2015 20:10

timeliz
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

Update on the Plate 23D...
The dial cleaned up very easily to this point.
The enamel of the numerals is actually raised and will come off if one scrubbed at it. Luckily I didn't make a mess of it. Smile

The "GRU" were already missing, unfortunately. I'm not certain if I'll re-lume or not. I'll decide when I take it in for service.

Before:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8636/16621931446_d5ffd21634_z.jpg

After:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7642/17021366012_f87c4c6428_z.jpg

Here's a size comparison with an 885 cushion and an 870:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8699/16835608610_398f0ea741.jpg

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

[Updated on: Fri, 03 April 2015 20:21]

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Re: from the swamp [message #5380 is a reply to message #5374]

Sat, 04 April 2015 15:47

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Nice Liz! Thanks for the images and update.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5498 is a reply to message #5380]

Sun, 03 May 2015 16:05

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

Sticking with the same era, this one was on the block last week: 171766581174

I made a go of it.

Went for a good price (for the seller) considering there are no hands with it. Anyone here pick it up? Despite the "names hidden for privacy" some of bidders IDs look familiar. Also, if any one needs spare parts for this one (not hands), I have several of these AS movements for spares. I also have staffs should it need a new one (despite the claim of working).

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Re: from the swamp [message #5499 is a reply to message #5498]

Sun, 03 May 2015 21:02

kastner
Messages: 324
Registered: May 2013
Location: Pasadena CA

Gruen Guildsman

I made a go of it as well Jack.

I've wondered just how often members of this forum end up bidding against each other.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5500 is a reply to message #5499]

Sun, 03 May 2015 21:36

timeliz
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California

Gruen Master

I was thinking of bidding too but I already have two of those movements, one DG&S and one Gruen signed dial.

Was more interested in the case. Hope someone here got it!

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver

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Re: from the swamp [message #5501 is a reply to message #5499]

Mon, 04 May 2015 02:27

JackW
Messages: 1670
Registered: May 2013
Location: Denver

Gruen Authority
General pain in the rear
Site Admin

kastner wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 21:02

I've wondered just how often members of this forum end up bidding against each other.

More often then we likely realize. I lost an auction to afire recently. Irony is the watch is on my bench. I'm still trying to finish it but am being thwarted by a pesky canon pinion that wont seat fully.

Liz, the case was why I was going after it too. I think it is the Bascine style out-o-doors. Though Bruce's book, which shows a watch of Cary's on page 32 indicates it should have a Rebberg. However, I'm guessing this isn't always true.

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Re: from the swamp [message #5512 is a reply to message #5501]

Mon, 04 May 2015 15:43

afire
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin

Gruen Authority

JackW wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 21:27

I lost an auction to afire recently. Irony is the watch is on my bench. I'm still trying to finish it but am being thwarted by a pesky canon pinion that wont seat fully.

All the headaches without the satisfaction of ownership. You are welcome! But it's not likely to happen again. I'm averaging about one purchase per year, so I'm not much of a competitor.

I had an eye on the round WSC watch too. And like everybody else found the case to be the most interesting part. I don't know that I've ever seen a two-piece screw-on bezel Gruen before.

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